Laurence Fox is an ignorant, spoilt brat.

[longwayoff]

What is wrong with this fool? Apparently in James Delingpole's podcast, heavy sigh, he criticises Sam Mendes for featuring a Sikh soldier in WW1 film. Ever heard of the British Empire, Laurence? How many Indians died for Britain? AIBU to say LF is being deliberately divisive and provocative and evidently doing his own publicity?

This is why we need things like Black History Month. No doubt something people who use the word 'woke' and 'PC' have an issue with

I have an issue with it because it's yet another example of the increasing tendency to impose Americanisms on British society.

"Black History Month" might make sense in America, with its history of slavery and anti-black legislation well within living memory, but why is it relevant in the UK? Why 'black' history in particular? Blacks are not the largest non-white ethnic minority in Britain. There are over twice as many people of Indian subcontinental descent in Britain as there are of Afro Caribbean descent. Why not an 'Indian History Month"? Or an "Irish History Month"? Why does everything have to be modelled after the US with its highly troubled race relations?

Why does everything have to be modelled after the US with its highly troubled race relations

Did you notice I said the word 'like'. The implication was that was just an example of what was needed. It was not just black history month

As you rightly explained, there is a lot of diversity in this country that is not represented in the curriculum and in the media. It's important that it is.

The idea that multiculturalism started a few decades after the great war is laughable for a start.

Do you not think that is why so many people are upset at Britain being labelled as a racist country? I think very few people actually believe what you think they do and many of us have grown up with multiculturalism as did our parents and grandparents. We have loved living with that multiculturalism and have had communities that all got on really well. To suddenly be constantly berated for our white privilege, or for being 'racist' in slippery, abstract ways is only serving to cause tensions in those communities. Don't get me wrong, there are racists, as there are racists absolutely everywhere, but they are not the majority of people.

Why does everything have to be modelled after the US with its highly troubled race relations

I think this is a massive problem. We aren't America, we don't have the same problems, our language isn't the same...I think too much equating British and American politics is really unhelpful.

I think this is a massive problem. We aren't America, we don't have the same problems, our language isn't the same...I think too much equating British and American politics is really unhelpful.

Yes, very unhelpful. Particularly the obsession with race when class has always been a much more fundamental faultline in British society.

In October 1914 the Jullundur Brigade was one of the first brigades from the Indian Army to go into action on the Western Front. ...
Sikh historian Peter Singh Bance said Sikhs and other Indians fought with the British Army corps, such as the 1st Manchesters and the 47th Sikhs fighting as one.

I haven't seen the film - is it set entirely in 1917?

The 1st Manchesters and the 47th Sikhs (Jullundur Brigade) appear to have left the Western Front by 1915/16 - two Indian cavalry divisions remained - is the actor rising a horse in the film?

"Three battalions from different parts of the world, with different cultures and different beliefs were placed together.These were the 1st Manchester's, the 47th Sikhs, and the 59th Scinde Rifles.Together they became known as The Jullundur Brigade."

1st Battalion
29.08.1914 Mobilised for war and sailed for Europe from Karachi, landing at Marseilles on 26.09.1914...
10.12.1915 Received orders to move to Mesopotamia and embarked at Marseilles for Basra and arriving 08.01.1916. this was to reinforce the British army fighting the Ottoman Empire in that area and assist in the liberation of Baghdad.

"The average Indian battalion had 764 men when it landed; by early November the 47th Sikhs had only 385 men fit for duty."..."The two Indian infantry divisions were withdrawn from France in December 1915, and sent to Mesopotamia"...

"Two Indian cavalry divisions remained on the Western Front until March 1918"...

discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/2f8ff186-2a81-47b1-a949-5f01c9a9ab9a
www.forces-war-records.co.uk/units/275/manchester-
regiment

"Of the 1.4 million Indians recruited for the First World War, some 563,369 were non-combatants, or “followers”, though their particular kind of war-work is rarely mentioned in the literature."

Not glamorous enough for the film probably;

"In February 1917, the government of India undertook to provide 50,000 labourers for France as well"

encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/labour_india

riding a horse

I can't help but wonder if racism in this country were to magically disappear overnight what would actually change for the majority of BAME people as money related privilege, connections and class would still reign supreme as it always has, with the majority white working class falling prey to it too.

Do you not think that is why so many people are upset at Britain being labelled as a racist country

To suddenly be constantly berated for our white privilege, or for being 'racist' in slippery, abstract ways is only serving to cause tensions in those communities. Don't get me wrong, there are racists, as there are racists absolutely everywhere, but they are not the majority of people

Do you think there is racism in this country - racism that is invisible to white people?

Not sure who you're talking to Plane, you seem to have imagined an argument in your head and taken it up with me?

I assume you usually research the exact months which regions regients where on the western front whenever a WW1 film comes out, Clavinova?

Ernst Junger has a full acount of fighting 'hindustani' soldier in 1917

The Third Battle of Ypres, better known as Passchendaele after the devastated village that was the final objective of the campaign, was a series of battles between July and November 1917. Passchendaele was the second largest battle fought by Allied forces during the war and involved Australian, Belgian, British, New Zealand, South African, Indian and Canadian troops.

The desperation is pathetic

sjmc.gov.au/passchendaele/

So its historically accurate that hindus fought on the Western front, and fought in battalions with British soldiers.

So LF is wrong as are all of the posters that backed him.

I don't think Clav that the film claimed to be an exact reenactment of events so the copy and paste bit was utterly unnecessary

To suddenly be constantly berated for our white privilege, or for being 'racist' in slippery, abstract ways is only serving to cause tensions in those communities. Don't get me wrong, there are racists, as there are racists absolutely everywhere, but they are not the majority of people

Replace the word 'white' with 'male', 'racist' with 'sexist' and that quote sounds exactly like some men do when women try to speak about sexism and male privilege.

Not all men.
Not all men are sexist
Slippery abstract ways of being sexist
Causing division between men and women

It's remarkably similar how one group reacts when another group tries to talk about an issue that affects them such as sexism, racism, homophobia.

Patroclus
I assume you usually research the exact months which regions regiments where on the western front whenever a WW1 film comes out, Clavinova?

I didn't need to research exact months - what are you on about? If you click on my links the dates are right there - in a list - copy and paste job.

Your link told me that the brigade mentioned had left the Western Front by 1915 - why bother linking if you don't want anyone to read it? I googled 'Jullundur Brigade', '1st Manchester's' and '47th Sikhs' - all three mentioned on this thread - easy enough - BBC history page helped. Not desperate - interested. Why are you bothering to look anything up?

BBC History;
www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwone/india_wwone_01.shtml

I'm not going to research 'Passchendaele' now - it's getting late, but I can see; “opportunities for the employment of cavalry in masses" -which fits in with "the two Indian cavalry divisions remained on the Western Front until March 1918" I posted earlier. I suspect that a large number of Indian service troops and labourers died in World War I as well - but they wouldn't film that would they.

Patroclus
I see that Afua Hirsch has argued that Nelson's column should be torn down as well - symbol of white supremacy;

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/22/toppling-statues-nelsons-column-should-be-next-slavery

Black History Month, I bet most of you learnt about Florence Nightingale before Mary Seacole.
Claudia Jones? Phyllis Wheatley?

You are indeed entitled to your opinion @GoldenKelpie, ill-informed and misguided as it may be, as are we all. What is most concerning though, is the number of people who pour out support for such as LF, and are supporting ignorance and bigotry, rather than fact, happy to shout "me, I'm ignorant too like LF, listen to me!" . When they can't offer evidence for their belief, they reverse the narrative and resort to insults. I don't agree these people are a "silent majority" -God help us all if they are - but they're certainly loud and shouty.

Oh god the ratio of the vote is depressing

I didn’t know he existed before but someone tweeted he represents a new type of twat ‘the anti-woke bad boy’

He’s so bigoted and ignorant he believes women can’t impregnate men - what a tool

That last interview he did was a train wreck! No, Laurence, you aren't a historian just a bigot who flinches at seeing brown faces next to nice, rosy, pink English ones and finds it 'incongruous' because you are a bigot.

"During the First World War, the Royal Pavilion [Brighton] was converted into a hospital for wounded soldiers.It became one of the most famous military hospitals in Britain."

"The Indian Army provided the largest number of troops, and by the end of 1914 they made up almost a third of the British Expeditionary Force."

"But the hospital was not only designed to care for the men’s medical needs. An enormous amount of effort was taken in catering for the patients’ religious and cultural needs. Muslims and Hindus were provided with separate water supplies, and nine kitchens were set up in the grounds so that food could be cooked by the patients’ co-religionists and fellow caste members. Sikhs were provided with a tented Gurdwara in the grounds of the Pavilion, and Muslims were given space on the eastern lawns to pray to Mecca."

"In late 1915 the British decided to redeploy the Indian Army in the Middle East, and most Indian soldiers were withdrawn from Europe. As a result, Brighton’s Indian hospitals gradually closed.The Pavilion was the last to close in January 1916."

The film is called '1917' - not '1914/1915'.

brightonmuseums.org.uk/royalpavilion/history/ww1-and-the-royal-pavilion/

Arts Editor, ITV News:
"I spoke to Sam Mendes about this. Sikhs (like my Grandfather) did as you say, fight in WW1, and he made a conscious decision to make that point. I had the feeling he might have been anticipating some nonsense woke accusations, but I personally was happy to see that character."

"he made a conscious decision to make that point"

Why include a solitary Sikh soldier in the film - why not a platoon or troop of 20 Sikh soldiers/cavalrymen? Tokenism.

Horrible Histories have a hilarious sketch of Mary Seacole vs Florence Nightingale and explain in 3 minutes EXACTLY how history can ignore one and laud the other...tho LF would no doubt find it historically 'inaccurate'... as would a lot of other posters on here probably .
Link below!

www.dailymotion.com/video/x2y56tl

Black History Month, I bet most of you learnt about Florence Nightingale before Mary Seacole. I was a primary school teacher. It's standard practice to teach children about both equally