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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

LGBTQI...

77 replies

UnaCorda · 19/01/2020 17:52

I think it is unhelpful for the intersex community for such conditions (AIS, Swyer Syndrome, etc.) to be conflated with sexuality (i.e. LGBTQ, etc.) or with gender identity issues such as being gender-queer or transgender.

Intersex conditions are biological/medical whereas sexuality is psychological, so - in my opinion - they should be treated differently. AIBU?

OP posts:
UprightStiffRabbit · 20/01/2020 17:36

LGB is different to transgender, and should not be lumped in with LGB imo. They just keep adding letters, which is insulting to many imo.

MiniGuinness · 20/01/2020 17:38

But by definition there is no opposite sex, if a person is neither biologically male nor female.
People with DSDs are biologically male or female though. There is no third sex.

slipperywhensparticus · 20/01/2020 17:40

Can I ask what is DSD?

UnaCorda · 20/01/2020 17:46

People with dsd are either Male or Female. If they identify as something then that would fall under the T that's already there

I disagree. I am happy to accept that as someone who appears 100% female but who has XY chromosomes, there should be a specific medical/biological term to describe me and others like me.

I do not accept that that would make me transgender, because the whole point of the prefix "trans" is that it implies change from one state other. I do not need to change anything to be unequivocally female and I certainly do not want to become male. (Yes, my condition renders me infertile, but it does not render me male, or masculine, in any way.)

OP posts:
UnaCorda · 20/01/2020 17:48

Can I ask what is DSD?

A Disorder of Sexual Development.

(And Google is a search engine... Wink)

OP posts:
M3lon · 20/01/2020 17:49

totally agree OP.

Whatisthisfuckery · 20/01/2020 17:55

LGB is about sexuality; t is about your identity not sitting comfortably with your bio sex; intersex/disorders of sexual development is a genetic condition. Neither of the three things have the first thing to do with each other and not every member of each letter is happy that they are grouped together.

As a lesbian, issues arhat affect me and specific needs I may have differ to that of a person who identifies as trans, in fact they’re somewhat in opposition to each other. I have no desire whatsoever to have a relationship with a male who identifies as female for example, because I am a homosexual female. I do not want males of any sort in places where I go to be with other lesbians.

Intersex/people with disorders/differences of sexual development are completely different again. They are also either male or female, although the waters can be muddied somewhat I imagine in some cases as to how people appear on the outside. Most intersex people will have a sexuality though, and unless they are L, G or B I’m not sure how thy fit in with LGB, and if they don’t identify as trans I don’t know how they fit in with the T either.

Intersex isn’t trans though, as so many intersex groups keep trying to tell everyone. I think it would be the decent thing if people would stop trying to conflate them against their will.

WeeSleekitTimerousMoosey · 20/01/2020 18:01

But by definition there is no opposite sex, if a person is neither biologically male nor female.

Hello?

As pointed out earlier my DSD is unique to females. If I was male I couldn't have it. No male human being ever has or ever will have my condition. It is specific to women.

The vast majority of DSDs do not cause a mismatch between chromosomal sex and phenotype. I do not presume to speak for the very small minority of people like UnaCorda who do but please STOP spreading disinformation about women like me.

PencilsInSpace · 20/01/2020 18:07

YANBU. Trans rights lobbying orgs have been trying to force team with intersex orgs and people for a very long time. Originally it was to try to make the case that being trans was a kind of 'intersex of the brain' and therefore much more respectable than LGB.

Now it's used to try to pretend that sex is a spectrum. And the trans orgs no longer try to distance themselves from LGB, in fact they're force teaming with them as well - to the extent that they will describe an organisation campaigning for LGB rights as a 'hate group' for not also campaigning for T.

How times change!

In 2000, four intersex orgs told GIRES to fuck off for this shoddy behaviour.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3763986-jo-swinson-taking-calls-on-radio-5-at-9am?msgid=92237592

titchy · 20/01/2020 18:09

But by definition there is no opposite sex, if a person is neither biologically male nor female

Wtf? People with a DSD are either biologically male or biologically female. No one is both, and no one is neither. FFS. Angry

slipperywhensparticus · 20/01/2020 19:39

Google tells me this

LGBTQI...
MiniGuinness · 20/01/2020 19:46

Was that really the first hit? It was fifth on mine, and who only looks at one hit? Because that is one site, all the others are about Differences in Sexual Development. Your username does not match your lack of knowledge about this.

UnaCorda · 20/01/2020 19:54

Seriously? Hmm WWF stands for World Wildlife Fund and World Wrestling Foundation. I don't know which one comes up first in a search as that's just off the top of my head, but it's fairly easy to work out which is the more relevant to the given context.

Not sure how being deliberately obtuse is in any way helpful here - and I answered your question in the first place.

OP posts:
AllideasAndNoAction · 21/01/2020 05:01

In total agreement with Una on this. My friend has what should really be termed a DSD. Unlike many other intersex conditions there is no confusion or ambiguity over whether their genitals are male or female. She has ovaries albeit they don’t function. There is no excess testosterone in women or excess oestrogen or lack of testosterone in men. No underdeveloped penis or over developed clitoris. Just a woman whose female reproductive organs and hormone production do not function properly because of a chromosomal abnormality affecting her second X chromosome.

In every respect she’s all woman and straight, just as much as any other straight woman who is infertile for any other reason. Should we categorise all infertile women as intersex because they can’t reproduce and lump them under the LBGTQ banner too? 🤔

Linning · 21/01/2020 06:27

I have personally never noticed intersex people being associated with the LGBT community, I wouldn't consider them part of the LGBTQ+ community at all.

I do think trans is different, because while its main focus isn't sexuality, trans people are by definition either attracted to the same sex or the same gender, so they do face similar (though different) struggle to the LGB community as a whole and also have played a massive part in helping us get equal right, so I have zero problem with trans people being associated with LGB people as a whole personally.

AllideasAndNoAction · 21/01/2020 08:41

Being trans clearly doesn’t mean that you are attracted to your own sex by default though, does it? And by ‘same sex/same gender’ which do you mean? The sex they were born as or the gender they identify with now?

There are many trans people who identify as women who still want to fuck biological women with their penises and identify as lesbian. Some might say this is a delusion stemming possibly from ASD, mental illness, a personality disorder or just plain old fetishism. Those people risk being deleted on MN and even cautioned by the police for a hate crime for persisting with those views.

Personally I am not aware of any trans ‘men’ who encourage men to fuck them in their vaginas while calling themselves (with a straight face) gay men. Perhaps they exist but I doubt there are many. I imagine the vast, vast majority of trans ‘men’ identified as Tomboys as children and butch lesbians as adults before they identified as (probably non binary) men wanting to continue sleeping with women who are probably lesbians. As a rule most straight women prefer their blokes to have a real, working penis.

Contrast that with many trans people who identify as women. Are they all the camp, naturally effeminate boys we always knew instinctively were probably gay? Devoid of the typical interests and characteristics of boys and men, hanging out with the girls and displaying very feminised body language and voice patterns? No. They are not. Most of those men are still just gay men. Some are now trans, or have gone all Sam Smith and are defining themselves as gender non binary, but are still clearly gay men.

The trans ‘women’ who sleep with men probably always wanted to sleep with men. They were probably gay men. Their new ‘non binary gender’ status doesn’t suddenly extend to wanting to sleep with the opposite biological sex.

However, it’s clear that a very visible proportion of trans ‘women’ have all the natural femininity and delicacy of your average bricklayer or rugby prop and probably didn’t show any signs of gender fluidity or confusion at school. They were not obviously women in waiting. They were not gay. And now that they are trans, they do not suddenly wish to sleep with biological men. They want biological women. They always have done. They’ve gone from defining themselves as a straight man to a lesbian woman. Somewhat unsurprisingly, lesbians are. Or particularly attracted to them and straight women aren’t either. And they are very, very angry about that.

AllideasAndNoAction · 21/01/2020 08:45

Lesbians are not particularly attracted to them

Linning · 21/01/2020 09:13

I mean either way (as per my post)

Regardless of if you agree that trans people are who they identify as.

A trans woman dating a man would be someone born with male genitalia attracted to someone with male genitalia

A trans woman attracted to women would be someone attracted to the same gender (not sex).

A trans man attracted to men is attracted to the same gender.

A trans man attracted to women is attracted to the same sex.

So either way they will be attracted to the same sex or gender, even if you were to say people attracted to the same gender are straight people in disguise their transition and the fact that they identify as male/female and don’t fit the norm will make them targets of homophobia, discrimination, hate crime, rape, murder and make them more likely to be suicidal. Those are all issues LGB people face and in fact as a lesbian (which has its own sets of issues) , I would say I have it way better than any trans woman out there, in-terms of public acceptance and quality of life. I feel much safer as a cis lesbian woman than I would as a trans woman, therefore I have no problem with trans people being included as some of them are trans and queer (regardless of whichever way you look at it) and therefore obviously belong and the rest are just going through the same struggles for a similar issue.

Cecily75 · 21/01/2020 09:29

@RhiWrites It’s because of intersectionality of oppression.

So as a non-white person living in the Western world (see what I did there, "West" as defined by...) I feel that I'm discriminated against and oppressed. Can you add me to the LBGTQI.... word salad please?

There may be shared experiences between some groups, but everyone shares some experiences with someone else so if you carry on in this way it becomes meaningless and you'll end up with the whole world.

LGB should be reclaimed on its own.

WeeSleekitTimerousMoosey · 21/01/2020 09:33

Gender, should you belive yourself to have such a thing, is irrelevant to sexual orientation which is purely about sex.

Transwomen are male. If they are attracted to men they are homosexual and fall under the G, if they are attracted to women they are heterosexual and nothing to do with LGB at all.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 21/01/2020 09:37

I have personally never noticed intersex people being associated with the LGBT community, I wouldn't consider them part of the LGBTQ+ community at all. Sadly many TRAs use the reality of the many and varied intersex conditions as some sort of 'proof' that human beings can change sex or look like one and be the other!

Many times we here on FWR, and the wider world, have read intersex individuals and organisations shout STOP. But TRAs never do! I don't know why, but flawed logic and the trampling other people's rights doesn't seem to stop them

Which is why, I am assuming, Una is posting.

VallarMorghulis · 21/01/2020 09:55

@AllideasAndNoAction my DC is a trans boy but has not transitioned other than socially, he has s boyfriend and considers himself gay. Mad I know...

So I'm not saying trans men who have sex with men consider themselves gay, but there are some...

VallarMorghulis · 21/01/2020 09:57

And for the record my DC was never a tomboy, just a normal little girl who liked Barbie dolls and princesses and also climbing trees and getting muddy...

titchy · 21/01/2020 10:23

but has not transitioned other than socially, he has s boyfriend and considers himself gay

Please tell me your child doesn't think identifying as a boy means they can't get pregnant....

MorganKitten · 21/01/2020 10:52

Sigh... this has turned into another anti trans thread.

Swipe left for the next trending thread