Anne Frank - should people have heard about her?

[MilkTrayLimeBarrel]

Chatting with DH about where to go for a city break this spring. I suggested Amsterdam - lots to see, including tulips, canals, bikes and Anne Frank's house. He asked who she was? AIBU to think that everybody should have heard of her and what she stood for/did? I couldn't believe that he honestly had no idea who she was!

The world wars have been studied in schools for years and Anne Frank is a part of that.

There is no reason Anne Frank would be covered in history at secondary level. You could spend five years teaching nothing but the second world war and not find space to fit her in. (And you would probably spend less 5% of your time on the holocaust, not because it's not culturally important, but because there isn't a lot to say that can't be summed up simply, and it doesn't really interact with other important events.)

It makes sense to me that where people did come across her in school, it was in English rather than History. She's famous because of her diary.

When I went to the States, I was at a museum for something or other (not war related) there was a reference to what had happened to production during the Second World War (1941-1945). I was quite shocked. The guide said "Yes, but the US didn't join the war until then." Maybe not, but that doesn't negate the fighting that went on for 2 years before that. Just because your country is not involved doesn't mean it didn't happen. That sort of thinking in an 'official capacity' doesn't help people to be informed. You might not know details of things before that but you need to at least acknowledge things were happening.

I can see that she could be mentioned in primary school "history", because in primary school subjects are less separate and you're not really trying to cover areas of knowledge comprehensively.

I'm not sure that Anne Frank is all that important in terms of studying WWII. She had no impact on the reasons for, progression of or outcomes of the war. She is often used at primary level as she is seen as relatable for younger children but I wouldn't really expect any particular mention on the secondary syllabus.

To be honest I find the lack of teaching about Russia's involvement or the war in the Far East that occurred during my children's eight straight years a piece of being taught endlessly about sodding WWII more problematic.

Ds was taught about Anne Frank is year 2 at school
DC did poppy day in year 1/2 and that really upset Dd, thankfully DM was still alive and spoke to her about being a child in war time.
They went on to do Anne Frank in year 5. Dd asked teacher to read the book , who came to me for permission to lend it to DD.

I was born in early 60s and dont remember where I learned about her. Probably from my DM , Readers Digest , Blue Peter also think there was a black and white film on tv.
We didnt cover that type of history in school, in fact we really didnt do a lot of history at school back in 60s and 70s. My DCs 22 and 24 have had far better history education than we did.

I was listening to Broadcasting House on the radio this morning. They were discussing child refugees and the fact that Boris Johnson has backed out of the agreement to reunite child refugees with their families in the UK. Then they went to 'the people of Harrogate' to see what they thought. There were several who thought "We need to look after our own first. I mean, it's sad and everything but we've got problems here too." I thought, I wonder how many of these same people are proud of Britain's role in the war and particularly in the Kindertransport. I wonder if they have even heard of the Kindertransport. I wonder if they have heard of Anne Frank and if they know that she and her family were refused entrance to the US and if they see that as a tragedy for that child. And if they can then see the parallels between all of that and what they themselves are saying.
And the answer is probably not. They probably don't know much about the war other than that Britain fought the Nazis and won. Which means they can be proud of their country for it's role in the war, while at the same time not see that child refugees are in the same position today.
Which is why this stuff is important.

babybythesea I hope you similarly question any European suggesting WWII started in 1939. The Chinese don't see it that way.

And you would probably spend less 5% of your time on the holocaust, not because it's not culturally important, but because there isn't a lot to say that can't be summed up simply, and it doesn't really interact with other important events

If people learn about history, including World Wars, and don't learn about the reasons that led to the holocaust - and the 'othering' that went on - then I would say that history at school has failed.

The whole idea of othering, of creating negative propaganda, the slow redaction of rights, the suppression of an opposition, changes in the laws, the role of the media....this is what history should be teaching people.

If he is in his early 50s I’m very surprised. Just to let you know that the AF house books up months ahead. They do release tickets online , but they go fast. We were online with 2 phones 5 mins after the release time and all tickets were gone. We were lucky the next day but it's less stressful booking in advance.

I thought every adult would at least know the years the war began and ended

Why? Not everyone is brought up with a strong war connection so it's literally a few lessons at school, not discussed by family and if the subject holds little interest then it won't stick long term

I don't think she is important for studying the war, particularly. I do think she is a human face of one aspect of it. Because she left her diary, she is more than a statistic. She is so normal and because of that, so easy to relate to. Through her you can see how the lives of normal people were turned inside out and destroyed. You read "this many people lived in hiding" but reading her diary gives an actual sense of what that really means for the individuals. It personalises history, and makes you see that it was not something unique to that time, and that you are not safe just because you are 'normal', living a 'boring' life.

Who did she think wrote Das Kapital?

Is it necessary to mention anything Marx wrote as part of an economics degree? Never having studied economics, I would have assumed not. I looked at the first general textbook on economics google brought up, and searching inside, only 5 pages in 820 mention Marx, and there are no references to Das Kapital.

Weesleekit - ooh, no. I actually have not much idea how the Chinese would view WW2. I've read a lot of WW2 history but not come across any books from that perspective. Most of my reading around the war in the East is from a western viewpoint - Singapore, Changi war camp etc. Can you start me off?
I'm not being sarcastic, but I genuinely haven't encountered this perspective before. It's that case of "I didn't know I didn't know it, so couldn't fill in the gap - I didn't know it was out there to be known."
Have you got a decent website recommendation I could start with, or a good book as an intro?

historynewsnetwork.org/article/160447
Would this be accurate? The trouble with the web is unless you already know what you are talking about it is easy to come up with inaccurate info.
Thanks for the nudge though - I shall investigate further.

that is ignorance

otoh it is perhaps just down to curruculum

I am European, not British, my country had very significant role in WW, I've never heard of her until I moved to UK. I do not consider myself uneducated nor ignorant.

WeeSleekitTimerousMoosey
Under that logic, we can say that the First World War began in 1917 then, when America joined in.

Hostilities between America and the Axis powers were from 1941-1945 and a museum exhibit that implies it was peacetime in the world prior to 1941 is basically useless. As for the Chinese, at what point did China declare war on Germany and the rest of the axis?

China and Japan had been at their parallel war for a good while before WWII broke out in Europe and our conflicts merged together, but I don't think that means you can say that WWII began earlier than it did. If Hitler hadn't existed at all, would we have ever bothered to join in with the Sino-Japanese War?

I wasn’t taught about the war at school. 80’s up in Scotland.

babybythesea Japan invaded China in 1937, from their point of view that was the beginning of the war years just as from our 1939 was or from the US's 1941 was.

I don't actually expect Europeans to consider the Sino-Japan war, which as jamieVardysHavingAParty says can be considered a parallel, but nor do I think it is wrong for Americans to discuss the war from their own view point, it was after all the Japanese, not Hitler, that got the US involved so if anyone has the right to complain about the US being late to the party it is those most effected by Japanese, rather than German, expansionism.

It's very easy to say "oh of course everyone knows the war lasted from 1939-1945" when really that's only vaguely true if you add the qualifier "for Britain".

Hitler had been expanding into Europe long before that, and people often forget (or were never taught) about the huge Pacific conflict between the Japanese, and the Chinese and Americans.

So really, there's no one answer for "when was WW2?".

Im reading Zlata's diary today, Blue Thursday.

I think that when you consider different points of view, and try to be less culturally-bound, it's names that change, not start dates.

Eg, you might say, we [China] were at war from from 1937-45, and there was a European conflict from 1939.

An official European war, that is.

Nah most european countries would still say 1939, and that is when it turned into a 'world war'. The expansion into Austria and the Sudetenland was peaceful. Up until then there were local wars, all the way back to the russian civil war and the red armies polish invasion in the 20s.

And Britain didnt have much choice about wether to fight in the far east. The Japanese invaded Malaysia the same day as Pearl Harbour.