Doctors SHOULDN’T get to “play God” ... AIBU

[MissKittyBeaudelais]

My mum went into hospital as a planned admission, in autumn last year for:-
Medication review
Tests into breathlessness
Physio

Despite admission being arranged by GP, we were told she HAD to go through A&E. She was there around 6 hours and was then placed on a small ward. Whilst in A&E, the Doctor who admitted/examined her talked about end of life and resuscitation. This is standard practice. The Dr. went on and on about what MIGHT occur in the event of resuscitation ie, stroke, fractured bones, brain damage, damage to internal organs etc. My mum insisted that, knowing all this, SHE STILL WANTED TO BE RESUSCITATED. The Dr. continued to push her message and eventually, I asked the Dr. to cease as I felt she was trying to persuade my mum into agreeing to not being resuscitated.

My mum was 79, lived alone, was fully independent and still drove. Her home had two separate staircases and her bedroom was on the top floor. Two days before being admitted, she was shopping in John Lewis for a birthday gift for me and we joked that I hoped it was a suitably expensive and frivolous gift! Remember, she’d gone into hospital for tests. Arranged by her GP. She wasn’t expecting to die. She was put on a ward with MRSA and Norovirus. Ten days later she had got an infection, deteriorated and died.

We requested the medical/nursing care notes as we were not happy with her care. When they arrived, I was really shocked to read the A&E notes in which the admitting Dr stated that both Mrs X and her Next of Kin (daughter) agreed NOT TO RESUSCITATE. I’m fucking furious. I never said that/signed to that. My mother never said that/signed to that. Remember, she was in for tests and physio. She NEVER expected to die. Neither did the family.

AIBU here? Did this Doctor just decide to play God? I remember, when the examination was over, my mum jokingly said “remember Dr, I want anything and everything doing to keep me alive!”

Can a Dr just decide to do this? How does she sleep at night? Ought my Mum/I have been asked to SIGN something to say we agree/disagree?

What would YOU do?

When my granny was in hospital and I came to visit her I found her desperately thirsty. I looked at the fluid chart and it was nothing logged for 24 hrs! She had a urine bag and her urine was brown. When I queried it with the staff the said they forgot to fill it in.
A few days later she died.
It has haunted me for years that I didn’t save her and she was disposed of by not giving her fluid.
Do what you feel is right.

What are you reporting it for?

It's not a personal attack. It's not offensive.

It's my opinion as to why the voting is what it is.
I didn't report any of your extremely personal attacks, where you accused me of being unfit at my job, questioned my character, said I was only fit to be a wart doctor etc etc. Maybe I should...

your post is not helpful. yes eventually all hearts stop, this does not mean they ccan be resuscitated. You need to be a bit better informed. The point here is that the OP thinks the doctor was playing God. The story does not support this statement

This makes no sense to me. In the three posts I made I didn’t say anything like what you’re implying here. I’m very well informed thanks. I resuscitate people for a living so I’m fully aware which patients are more likely to be successfully resuscitated. I don’t think you’ve actually read my posts properly.

I would argue your post is even more unhelpful. Not quite sure why you’ve decided to pick on my posts in such a patronising way 8 pages later but hey ho. I’m quite happy with my knowledge and understanding of advanced life support and resuscitation but just so you know I’m going on another course in March. I’ll be sure to ask the instructors to keep a close eye on me as I need to be a “bit better informed” that not everyone can be resuscitated when their heart stops.

Hi everyone, can we remind everyone to remain civil and report anything to us that is breaking guidelines? If the personal attacks continue, we might have to take down what seems to be a very thoughtful discussion. Thanks all

@AkexanderHalexander...you simply cannot accept anyone else’s viewpoint can you? Read this...

When my granny was in hospital and I came to visit her I found her desperately thirsty. I looked at the fluid chart and it was nothing logged for 24 hrs! She had a urine bag and her urine was brown. When I queried it with the staff the said they forgot to fill it in.
A few days later she died.
It has haunted me for years that I didn’t save her and she was disposed of by not giving her fluid.
Do what you feel is right.

You used a “falling about laughing” emoji relating to my mother’s hospital experience and subsequent death. And you don’t think it’s offensive.

The crying with laughter emoji was at how different your OP was to the later true story, as you well know.

Why would I laugh at someones death?

The doctor recorded something in the notes that was note true. That matters. The doctor recorded that the OP and her mother were in agreement with the DNR. They made no such agreement.

Angry accusations and condemnations aren't changing anything.
OP you've had all the replies now it's up to you to decide what to do. Continuing on here isn't changing your mindset and is becoming destructive.

Whilst the medical notes left by the doctor clearly have an error (which is worth a complaint!) you can’t make the leap that therefore this doctor intended to “play god” and essentially was responsible for her death or purposely caused it (as this is what “playing god” suggests)

Op I think the above statement is pretty fair and whether it be due to your grief or for whatever reason, this is what has ticked off a few people as the true circumstances came out .
I would also suggest AIBU isnt the best place for this plus on an internet forum capital letters is taken to be shouting at others and isnt very nice.
Again Im sorry you have lost your DM and I would urge you to arrange a meeting to discuss the Drs actions and the care issues you have.
I would urge you to try to see things in shades of grey rather than black/white .
Your Uncle may and I say may be prone to the politeness that many elderly people have that manifests as "Yes Dr" as thats how they have been brought up in the past, while they reveal their true feelings to family. Its only a suggestion as to what might be happening, we are not there .

How can so many apparently intelligent people be so hard of thinking?

Stating that someone has agreed to no interventions in a hypothetical scenario which may require resuscitation is what OP is referring to when she says “playing god”. OP has at no point said that these actions caused her mother’s death.

Making errors in someone’s notes, deliberately or otherwise, isn’t only problematic if it leads to their death and the fact that there are multiple HCPs arguing the toss on this point continues to be alarming.

Calling a grieving bereaved woman “melodramatic” and posting laughing emojis is not appropriate behaviour either.

Deathgrip Agreed. And despite what certain HCPs have been saying, a medical professional on the very first page, before others took the thread all over the place, clearly stated that the admitting doctor definitely shouldn't have written anything untrue in the notes. That was the sole issue the OP was referring to, despite other people's attempts to suggest otherwise.

Deathgrip
Don't inflame the thread.
OP is going to investigate what happened re the DNAR discussion.

But using multiple capitals / shouting and sweeping generalisations are melodramatic.

I’m Sorry to hear about your mum. The GP would not have sent your mum to a&e for routine planned admission for a medication review and physio as the Gp should be doing a medication review, physio can be done in the community and routine tests for breathless can be done as an outpatient.
It sounds like the Gp felt your mum wasn’t very well hence why he felt she needed to go via a&e as usually the GP’s can bypass this straight to the admissions unit.
Although a DNR form may have been done, they would not have suggested this if they didn’t feel it was a necessity and and would have still done everything to treat your mum with the exception of CPR
I do think you need answers and if you feel the care was unsatisfactory then you should definitely go through pals as this is the correct route. You should write a detailed letter of complaint and ask to meet with the medical team/ward that looked after her. I hope that get the answers and justice you need.

OP for your own peace of mind go to PALS.

I am a doctor and when my DPs parent died, it was a mess. I watched my DP, his sisters and brothers struggle. When we had a meeting with the hospital - mistakes were admitted and apologies given.
Did not change the outcome but watching my loved ones breathe a sigh of relief during that meeting was cathartic for all involved. For 6 months the anger and unknowns were dominating their lives - this gave them peace and closure.

As a doctor, I learned as much from that meeting as I do when I sit down and do the bad chat with relatives at work.

Believe me no one wants to play God - but many people expect us to make the "God" decision for them. It is never easy and you wrestle with whether you got it right.

Closure will not come for you until you know.

AlexanderHalexander I am really sorry you've had all these nasty comments when you've just tried to explain things in measured terms . Unfortunately, as you say, death does bring out extreme emotions, the Charlie Guard case is testament to that.

You've done your best to be sympathetic to the OP but I agree she, and others on here, have used some inflammatory language, 'playing god' amongst them. It was a completely unnecessary phrase which implies deciding whether someone should live or die, which is clearly not what this doctor did, and everyone knows that. But we are encouraged, particularly by the press, that doctors should be able to save everyone, and quality of life is not even to be considered. And people are also encouraged to be angry about everything, and that helps no one.

I agree Alexander has been treated with complete disrespect. OP has been very argumentative and not willing to thoughtfully listen and consider others' input.