To be horrified by what I just saw on tv

[Mammajay]

I just watched Panorama I Want My Baby back on 8 London live. I know how vital it is that endangered children are taken into care but these poor parents have been the victims of gross injustice. Mums with vitamin d deficiency have given birth to children with vitamin d deficiency. The babies then suffered rickets and bone fractures. Doctors thought the babies had been abused and the children were taken into care. There were four families and only one got their child back. When a child died ( not one of the 4 families) the parents were charged with causing the death due to the fractures. The pathologist who did the post mortem found the babies bones broke as she handled the body and concluded the child had rickets and vitamin d deficiency so the charges were dropped. Watching the couple and the grandparents whose child had been taken into care going for the final visit before their much loved son / grandson was to be adopted was heart breaking. So, aibu, to think there should be some sort of official inquiry into such cases.

There are genetic, hereditary forms of rickets. It is not always caused by neglect and poor diet. I have one where my kidneys filter out too much vitamin D and was on high doses of supplements throughout my childhood. My mother was treated as a neurotic parent for trying to get medical attention for my severely bowed legs as a toddler.

It’s not about which I’d ‘prefer’

It’s about what is right.

It is NOT acceptable to permanently remove a child from their birth family, never to see them again until they are adults, have them become strangers to one another, because abuse ‘might’ have occurred.

For such a thing to happen, abuse should be PROVEN.

Proven? Abuse is often not witnessed.

@Sunflowerdaisysummer

I agree with you. I think in truly contentious cases there should be a third option if at all possible between permanent loss and foster care. But lack of resources and the potentially destabilising effect on a child will be considerations. It is a stark choice indeed. And may be avoided if much more thorough testing is done right at the beginning in the case of fractures and bruising.

third option if at all possible between permanent loss and foster care.

Some countries have a very different foster care system which is basically a more permanent foster placement, I guess it would be like an “open” adoption where the birth family is still in contact.
I worked with two children in the UK who lived with a long term foster family and they were every bit part of that family (wonderful carers) while still getting the support from the LA, and seeing their mum three times a year which was enough for them at that time, and mum was supportive of it too. Proper life story work had been done, and these children were settled and doing really well. An exception perhaps, but shows what is possible in certain circumstances.

@karencantobe

You are absolutely right. And abusers often hide the results of their abuse to avoid detection. In cases where a parent rocks up to doctors because of concern for their baby and the first conclusion is abuse, I would want very thorough investigation because it's a bit contradictory, unless one jumps to the conclusion that attention seeking is a motive.

@oldqueen I am sure that medics get it wrong sometimes. But it is also the case that one partner physically abuses the child and lies to their partner and said an accident happened. So yes both parents take the child to the hospital. It is sadly not at all contradictory.

@karencantobe

I see your reasoning and don't doubt that happens, but there is a vast difference between some medics getting it wrong, and child abuse being diagnosed based on outdated or incomplete research, or even because informed medics outright reject new research because they feel their experience based on older methods outweighs the new and
it threatens them - must be a terrible feeling being left wondering if some cases where adoption was the outcome might have been different when new stuff comes to light. One can rationalise it of course - better than a child suffering and all that But even so.

For such a thing to happen, abuse should be PROVEN.
This doesn't take account of precedent.
You have a family where several dc have been removed because of sexual abuse.
The couple go on to have a baby.
Do keep the baby in the family home until they too have experienced sexual abuse?
It doesn't have to be sexual abuse the idea stands for any category.
Is it ethical to wait until abuse occurs before removal?

Birth mum who has been through a non consensual adoption here so talking from the voice of bitter experience.

I had my first born removed at birth. Unbeknownst to me when I met the father, he already had a child - a daughter - who had been put into care because of his abuse of the mother.

There was verbal abuse and control in my relationship at the point where I became pregnant but no violence - yet.

I confided in my midwife at my first appointment that he was becoming controlling and could be verbally abusive. The midwife subsequently referred me to social services which I thought was a positive thing.

SS became involved and I was very open with them, I then found out only a small part of the dad's history (that there was a child removed from his previous relationship - nothing else.) They 'couldn't' give me specific details but didn't seem concerned about the relationship or instruct me to leave him. They began an assessment which was nothing more than infrequent visits for a chat. I wasn't worried.

Due to his verbal abuse and control I wanted out so I asked my then social worker for support in relocating to another part of the country where my family lived and I was told in no uncertain terms not to leave town because it would "disrupt the assessment"

Despite having no support I jumped through hoops and did everything asked of me (coincidentally, I was never told to leave the abusive partner) despite wanting and needing to. They said I was young and would benefit from parenting classes but I had to find some myself, fair enough - I did and did so in abundance.

I naively trusted her against my better judgement and stayed in the area thus remaining at risk.

At 36 weeks pregnant a PLO meeting was held but my "solicitor" told me to wait in the waiting area of the town hall and she would call me as the meeting was starting - she didn't. They held the meeting without me and she made zero attempt to argue against the local authorities plan to remove baby at birth, with me blissfully unaware downstairs.

Bare in mind that up until this point there had been no mention of him being removed, it was kept from me until they made their decision at 36 weeks pregnant and I was therefore stuck. There had never been a mention of him being taken until then. There were no prior ultimatums, no guidance other than recommending parenting classes, no support whatsoever during visits and no conditions given to me under which I would be allowed to keep baby. If there were ever an inkling that my son would be removed I would have been out of that town in a shot. Nothing.

I was later accused of downplaying the abuse when in actuality I was transparent, there was no physical abuse when they became involved only much later on which I was truthful about. They said he had been hitting me since the relationship began and that I was minimising. That was a lie.

The local authorities solicitor also wrote in her paperwork that I had deeply entrenched mental health problems which I successfully rebutted as I had absolutely no mental health diagnosis on file or any indication of such. This was another outright lie.

Infact there were so many lies and mistruths it was overwhelming.

I went into labour at 38 weeks and within 60 minutes of delivering my son I had a new social worker I had never seen, enter the room and demand I sign a section 20 to have baby put into foster care. I refused and she said they were taking me to court on the Monday (this was Saturday) and so I wasn't permitted to leave the hospital.

My solicitor arrives at the hospital monday morning and of course I'm hysterical, she tells me not to attend court and she will attend on my behalf as I'm "too emotional" but to trust her as she will look after our best interests.

I instructed her to request a mother and baby placement for me and my son to go to, she agreed (but didn't follow through)

Because my solicitor didn't oppose the order being granted, the court approved the local authorities request to remove. He was taken from me at 11.45am on the Monday morning.

I had managed to get babies father out of my house at that point with the help from his mother (who also turned out to be awful) and was fighting against their decision. I sacked the solicitor and self represented over the next 6 month's. I put my case to the court who agreed that there had been no support whatsoever, it was handled terribly and they agreed for me and baby to be placed in a mother and baby unit. SS were given one week to find an appropriate unit.

Over a week passed and no unit placement was found (because they didn't attempt to find one) and as I was waiting to be reunited with my baby.

Back to court.

The magistrates scolded SS for not following their instructions and demanded a placement be found.

They continued to drag their feet.

I was left in a vulnerable situation and as I look back I feel their feet dragging was deliberate as they knew, due to how he was, that he would raise hell after knowing i would be being moved away with baby.

I was being hassled no end by my ex throughout all of this and SS told me I was to report every incident to the police which I did. When he assaulted me, I had him arrested.

SS then used the police log against me and applied to "stay" the order meaning block the possibility of me getting the mother and baby unit. As a result of their application my case was transferred to another court in the next city and away from the magistrates who were in my corner.

I moved into a refuge (again, never a suggestion from SS that I should be doing that) to evidence I was doing my best to get away from him.

By this point my son was Over 7 months old, family law proceedings where SS are seeking adoption have a time frame of 5 months. We were now way past that.

The new judge concluded adoption was for the best, the case had gone on too long and it was in my son's best interest to be settled irrespective of all of my mitigation and evidenced foul play by SS, though said he took no pleasure in concluding that way and perhaps "in a few years" I could have children.

I saw my son for 90 minutes in a "goodbye ceremony" and have never been able to see him since. Not even a photo. They told me photos aren't allowed incase I used it to try and see him.

Adoptive parents were found, I pleaded to be able to meet them so I could have a semblance of closure. SS said no. I asked to speak to them over the telephone, again - no. I couldn't know anything about them.

I receive one letter per year and no pictures. My letter is almost always months late.

Years later went on to have two more children, in another city with another man. I referred myself to our local SS as I felt I had to prove myself and was worried about going through the same thing again. I had absolutely no trust in social services and thought they were all the same.

Luckily my allocated SW was amazing, I gave her all of my paperwork which she went through with a fine tooth comb, she was genuinely appalled at what she was reading and raised her concerns with the management team who were also aghast.

There were so many lies about myself personally that she was able to debunk very easily by looking into my records.

They were hyper critical of me from the word go, for example: writing that I looked "scared to get wet" and "nervous" when bathing my son at a contact centre whilst being watched like a hawk as part of an assessment. What new mum isn't nervous bathing their baby for the first time, especially if somebody is there watching and taking notes.

My SW said in all her years of social work (many) she had never seen anything like it and was truly saddened.

My case with her was closed and there was no further involvement needed as all of the rubbish the last lot had spouted about me was debunked. On her last visit after DS2 was born she said I would have made a lovely mum back then if only I were given some support and urged me to make complaints to anybody who will listen.

I don't feel strong enough yet, but I will do.

I've rambled on for what seems like an eternity and I'll be here for hours if I list every lie they told, every half truth, every time they twisted things and used things against me that were untrue. I hope everything is in order as I've had to go back and edit paragraphs. Apologies if I'm rambling.

So that's my story, I don't believe SS are child abductors who do it for the money and whatever other conspiracy theories there are, but I do know and can say for absolute certain that there are some bad apples among them and more often than not judges will go along with the SS suggestion without question. They are after all, entrusted to act within the best interests of the child.

My son didn't need to be removed at birth. I needed support in leaving an abusive man, which I asked for and was let down. I was told to stay in a dangerous situation (the locality where my abuser was) because moving away would disrupt their assessment.

I should have left. I put my trust in the wrong people.

Some SW's are phenomenal people, same for judges, but not all.

There needs to be an enquiry into (not all) non consensual adoptions because it is an absolute fact that children, usually babies, are put forward for adoption without any support being offered to the parents.

Quickly there’s nothing I can say to that. I’m sorry.

@Quicklychangingmyname44

Just wanted to say I hear you x I am so sorry x

@sunflowerdaisy We are at the point of adopting after a year of assessment and verification. I’ve read seriously disorganised reports on a number of children. I can say having emotionally invested parents for a child is far better than having a sw with a number of cases and foster carers. The reports also reflect all the steps social services go through to support families. It’s glaringly obvious that there are still holes in the system and I could see children being removed if they weren’t meeting multiple milestones. Whether that would meet the bar for an adoption order is another thing tho. The reviews are pretty robust and written with the reasoning clearly shown as the child will eventually get to access their records.

The reviews are pretty robust and written with the reasoning clearly shown as the child will eventually get to access their records

I have read the reviews and reports that SS write and if I was an 18 year old reading the lies that were written as the reason I was adopted it would put a huge chasm between myself and the people who adopted me.

Like Quicklychangingmyname44 has said the amount of shear lies that SWs write is unbelievable until it happens to you.

I have seen what was written about my friend. There were so many lies it was a case of every line had to be dissected and proved that what was written was wrong

One issue as an example was my friends culture and religion. As an example let us say friend is Muslim and she is raising her dc as Muslim yet SW stated that friend is Irish Catholic and is raising her dc as Hindus because she has an obsession with all things Indian

Where do you start trying to correct that nonsense

Apparently that was one of the reasons why friend was mentally unstable.

Friend then would state that her exh was a alcoholic who was in and out of rehab and was incapable of looking after himself as let alone 2 small children

SW stated that this was a lie and another fantasy created by friend to stop their father from having joint custody of the children

Yet a few pages later SW states that the exh is an alcoholic who has been in and out of rehab and is incapable of looking after himself let alone one child
The whole report was like this. Reading it you were flicking back to different pages as you knew you were reading something that had been stated categorically was untrue if friend had said it and stated as fact if SW stated it.

As I have said before I think there is going to be a huge problem coming up when these children turn 18 and read the reports that were the basis of turning their lives upside down and ripping them from their birth parents

I feel sorry for everyone involved as I can see the parents who adopted a child on the basis that this child came from an abusive home. They will have poured their heart and soul into that child only for that child to turn 18 and discovers the reports and meets their birth parents and end up returning to the birth parents without a backward glance to the parents who adopted them and spent the previous 15 years raising them

If your top priority is not punishing anyone innocent, you have to accept letting some of the guilty go free. If your top priority is catching every single guilty person (because they are a danger to their children), then you have to accept you'll catch a few innocent ones by mistake. The child protection system errs on the side of caution towards the child's safety, as it should. An unavoidable side effect of that is that some innocent parents will accidentally be treated as if they are guilty.

What this means is that no matter how much people try to be reassuring, it's actually completely rational for the ordinary innocent parent in the street to be frightened of being caught up in the system and to be scared of the power of social workers. Your innocence might not protect you. Although it's unlikely, it's possible that you might have your child taken away even though you didn't do anything, because the system doesn't need to prove that you definitely did it, once it looks like you might have.

Even if you understand why the system is set up like that, it's still terrifying to imagine.

And it's not as though the outcome for the children taken away from innocent parents is no big deal - however loving adoptive parents are, being torn away from parents who actually weren't hurting you at all is going to damage you horribly. It's not just about worrying about the birth parents' feelings. Protecting the children of innocent parents from being unnecessarily sent away from their parents should be as high a priority as it can be without changing the overall aim of catching every guilty parent.

Would technology help, if as soon as the possibility of abuse was raised, every significant interaction between a family and professionals (anything that leads to people reporting on 'how the parents seemed', for instance) was routinely and neutrally recorded and available to all sides for later review. It seems as though trying to correct mistakes in reports, subjective opinions and misunderstandings that sometimes propagate through the process as if they were facts, and things like that, are often a problem. Maybe more access to recordings of original meetings would help?

The problem in trying to catch everyone out is that even if your child isn’t taken off you, even if you only have a minor brush with SS it leaves a scar which makes you distrustful of seeing anyone in any sort of role who might decide to report you.

Ds refused to go to the doctor or dentist until he is 18 after a nurse reported him to SS because he raised 2 red flags. Apparently if you HE that is a red flag and if you are not up to date with inoculations that is another.

Ds was very ill over Christmas and only saw an out of hours gp over Christmas as he is doing an apprenticeship and is now 17

He had to be persuaded to go as he was so ill.

This time last year he definitely wouldn’t have entertained the idea.

Regarding returning children who were adopted in error. Many children were released by parents in Ethiopia for adoption wrongly. The parents were told the children were being sponsored in education placements in the USA and would come back when they were adults. So many Ethiopian 'orphans' had parents who just wanted their children to have an amazing opportunity. A family who adopted an Ethiopian child found this out, because her child told her, I think, and returned her to her parents, and I think gave them a good deal of money. I don't think they'd had her for very long. They still stayed very involved with the girl's life. I can't remember the exact details but I remember she was returned.

My friend had her child taken from her due to a campain by her bitter ex. He got custody...this is a man who uses emotional abuse with his own child. Yet he wrapped the social worker around his little finger.

No adoptivedad, this isn’t a discussion about whether children are better in foster care than with adoptive parents. I’m sure they are.

It still does not mean that permanent removal from birth family in cases such as these are right or fair on anybody.

I have no doubt that any number of children would fare better if they were brought up by different parents. It still doesn’t mean we can remove them.

@Quicklychangingmyname44 I'm sorry that happened, you were so let down.

On the other side a case near my hometown where a father was jailed for shaking his daughter, he protested his innocence and was released. Both his children had been removed fro. The mother and were living with their grandparents. Once the father was released and it was agreed that the child hadn't been shaken, the children against the grandparents wishes were placed back with the parents . A year later he murdered the child, so shockingly sad. The child was called Ellie Butler if anyone wants to look it up. The grandparents had pleaded with SS not to place the children back with them.

@Quicklychangingmyname44 oh my god that is so awful I just don't know what to say

Did your solicitor even do anything that they should do for you? Cos it seems they did nothing to act on your side from what you're saying? If that's the case how is he doing his job at all?

I am so sorry for what you've been through

No doubt social services and doctors have a very difficult job to do. I have only dealt with social services once and very briefly.

My very young toddler son broke his leg falling off a step. When it became apparent he couldn’t put weight on it we took him to accident and emergency. He was xrayed and had his leg put in a cast and off we went home feeling very guilty that such an injury could happen in our care.

The next day we received a call from a panicked doctor asking us to come back to accident and emergency. When we asked why he sounded embarrassed and it basically transpired they had forgotten to do any kind of safe guarding checks (we hadn’t thought about it at the time but with hindsight, they hadn’t checked anything out about us). It was a pain having to go back on a Sunday night and they were extremely grateful we did and didn’t make their life difficult. Once we were there we then couldn’t leave until they confirmed we weren’t on any kind of child protection list which took time as it was a Sunday night.

We were told we would receive a call from a social worker the next day which we did. I would love to say she was happy with our explanation but I honestly don’t think she was listening. I explained what had happened which was basically he fell off a step in a communal area and after I had explained it all she said ‘so what would you do differently’. It was a tricky question to answer because we had a son who was learning to climb stairs so what can you do - not let him learn? Her response was “perhaps you should get a stair gate”. I repeated it was a communal area so not possible and she basically said “oh yeah, well I’m closing the case anyway so bye”.

I guess that from the doctors to the social worker, they just didn’t think there was anything suspicious about us and so were a bit slack about it all but I found it quite shocking that if we had been a risk to our child, that firstly doctors would have forgotten to check us out and secondly, when we were checked out, the social worker didn’t actually seem to listen to what we were saying. I wonder if we had been less ‘middle class’ then we would have been treated differently.

Anyway, based on this experience I could see how errors could happen in either direction very easily.

The problem seems to be that in child protection, in the unexplained baby fractures cases, the parents were assumed guilty which is the opposite of UK criminal law, which is based on being innocent until proved guilty. I have no way of knowing whether things have changed since the cases shown on the 2014 Panorama I want my baby back, recently shown on 8 london live. It was the pathologist handling the post mortem of baby Jaden, and finding the baby's bones brittle and easily broken, which enabled the parents to be acquitted of Jadens murder. The mother had vitamin d deficiency causing rickets in the baby which don't show on xray. There was much other evidence.
Of the other 4 families who were accused of child abuse due to unexplained fractures only one got their child back Two children were adopted and the families have to live with that loss whilst being innocent of any crime. I would like to see some sort of official report showing that this injustice is recognised and won't happen again. This is to protect innocent children and parents.

But you can’t “assume not guilty” when there’s a potential serious risk to the child. You have to immediately act protectively. Of course, at that point proper and fair investigations need to be made.

In the case of the Panorama programme, was there a serious case review undertaken? I haven’t seen the show yet.

@Thetigeronthewobbelboard The medic panicked because they had not done their job. It sounds to me though like the SW believed you and was just filling in a form when they asked what you would do differently.

@Oliversmumsarmy That seems an extreme reaction to what would be a check everything was okay. HE just means that a child is probably not seen by a teacher every day who can report concerns. If a child is being abused, it is easier to hide it of you HE. And not keeping up with innoculations is common in families where neglect is happening because they can't cope. So there might be good explanations, but it does often point to wider issues. So yes they do have to check it out.
If your child had been at school they would probably have just phoned the school and checked if there were signs of neglect or the parents not coping e.g. constantly late for school, not returning permission slips, etc. And of everything was fine, that phone call may have been enough. But with HE children they can't do that.