To be horrified by what I just saw on tv

[Mammajay]

I just watched Panorama I Want My Baby back on 8 London live. I know how vital it is that endangered children are taken into care but these poor parents have been the victims of gross injustice. Mums with vitamin d deficiency have given birth to children with vitamin d deficiency. The babies then suffered rickets and bone fractures. Doctors thought the babies had been abused and the children were taken into care. There were four families and only one got their child back. When a child died ( not one of the 4 families) the parents were charged with causing the death due to the fractures. The pathologist who did the post mortem found the babies bones broke as she handled the body and concluded the child had rickets and vitamin d deficiency so the charges were dropped. Watching the couple and the grandparents whose child had been taken into care going for the final visit before their much loved son / grandson was to be adopted was heart breaking. So, aibu, to think there should be some sort of official inquiry into such cases.

@Duckyneedsaclean You don’t know a lot about trauma do you, you also don’t appear to know a lot about the care system in the UK.

@SimonJT what do you disagree with exactly?

Ricketts is very severe though, if the parents had been giving vitamins like is recommended would it have got that bad? Even so it's on the doctors to recognise vit d deficiency rather than abuse.

Oh come on panic, seriously?

I think we can agree if baby p’s mother had another child then it should be removed, for example

And the judge was wrong karen

Tbh I do think a law review could be made where if it is proven in a fairly timely fashion that a child was removed/adopted on false grounds, then that decision can be overturned.

Given how long these things take though from the moment of SS being involved to adoption papers being signed(and it can take years sometimes ) it's mind boggling that no one was able to figure it out it wasn't abuse.

@Sunflowerdaisysummer So you’re happy for children to be abused and neglected as long as their parents are doing it. Adoptive parents don’t ‘love’ their children, the ones who pretend to love are the birth families who physically, mentally, sexually abuse their children, starve them, use them as ashtrays, make them eat their own waste, subject them to emotional abuse.

Sadly a lot of people are pro child abuse when the birth parents are the abusers.

Don’t be so utterly ridiculous simon

Really, stop. It’s making me absolutely cringe.

I agree with that panic, I think that is sensible and compassionate for all parties.

@Sunflowerdaisysummer The medics were wrong. The judge can only consider the medical info presented.

A little girl in dd’s primary school ( also lives near us ) has recently been removed from her mum’s care due to neglect and clearly many other issues that nobody really knows.

The poor kid was full of nits, filthy clothes, displayed extremely concerning behaviour when playing in our street last summer with dd and I for one am glad that this poor child has been removed. Whether or not it prompts changes from the mum- who knows? And it may be too late now.
Nobody was surprised when we found out sadly.

I can think of loads of people that I would be outraged and shocked at if this happened to their children but I’m aware that appearances can be deceptive. I think it’s wrong that adoption can’t be reversed if a serious error had been made such as the example above over the broken bones.

There sadly isn’t enough money for the amount of SW/police we need and lots of people are scared of SS for the wrong reasons. This could have been avoided.

Why are children getting rickets in the UK in 2020? It's an easily preventable condition.

Of course, but the point is that whoever is making that decision - be it judge, medic, social worker - it is irrelevant. Mistakes are made. Moreover and of more concern to me, I do think there are cases where children should stay with their birth parents but don’t, not as extreme as the examples given but it does happen.

My point is that although now because of the baby who died they know that babies can be born with vitamin d deficiency which can cause rickets and multiple fractures, they are still ( unless things have changed since the programme) ignoring that possibility and assuming the parents are abusing their children. The radiologist who is the expert witness used in many family court cases refuses to accept the opinion of other experts. Doing so would mean he could have been wrong before and would damage his reputation. I recorded the programme but if it is on any catch up option I would ask you to watch it. Only by as many people as possible knowing about stuff like this will things change. Now, if anyone told me about a young family going through this, I would advise then immediately to get themselves and the baby tested for vitamin d deficiency.

I think we can agree if baby p’s mother had another child then it should be removed, for example

And as far as the judge knew they removed a baby with a multitude of broken bones that were determined as intentional by professionals. That is an extreme circumstance and definitely grounds for removal,surely you agree.

Whether the process was thorough enough and adequate evidence and investigations were required and requested that is another matter.

I don’t know to be honest, panic

Removed, certainly, removed on a permanent basis, possibly not. There have been enough of these sorts of cases to make me cautious where injuries are concerned. Awful of course.

To answer your question, yes I do think an inquiry into these specific situations should be held. I will say this is rare, it's come up in the family law module studying law and my close friend is a social worker, and neither my lecturer (former solicitor) or friend have knowingly come across such a case, but even one case where a child is incorrectly removed is terribly sad.

Slightly different but the case of Justina Pelletier is an interesting one, she was almost removed from her family. She was diagnosed with the same illness her sister had. One day she had to go to the ER, but the doctor she usually saw was away, so they travelled to another hospital where doctors misdiagnosed her and claimed her parents had been neglectful by not treating her for this misdiagnosed illness, instead they'd been treating her for the illness she had initially been diagnosed with--the one she actually did have. The doctors kept her there and she was so close to being removed before a young man who had been following her case blew it wide open by hacking websites and posting what was happening to her, for which he was charged. Turns out the hospital had misdiagnosed her with a mental illness and subjected her to a year of pain and being kept from her family as they refused to treat her for the physical condition she actually suffered from.
They are now suing the hospital.

I think adoption should potentially be reversed in extreme cases such as this when there has been a miscarriage of justice.

Definitely. It’s barbaric that it is not.

Haven't seen the programme so don't kbow about these specific cases.

Watching the couple and the grandparents whose child had been taken into care going for the final visit before their much loved son / grandson was to be adopted was heart breaking

Were the grandparents assessed as potential carers or were they thought to be abusing the children as well? I have relatives who work in the care system and the preference is to return to the family or wider family if possible, the outcomes are generally best if a child can stay with family. A lot of time is spent assessing grandparents or absent fathers (often these men don't know they are the fathers till they get the blood test result) to see if they are suitable carers.

I haven't read the whole thread so sorry if someone has already said this but I wonder if these type of cases have informed recent medical advice to mothers?

My midwife and health visitor both advised that I give baby a vitamin D drop each day and to take a multi vitamin containing the same myself as it was the new 'guidelines'.

I'm not deficient so wondering if it's blanket advice now?

No other country in Europe takes children away from families as much as UK, the statistics are shockingly different. So sad. Not a national scandal because the victim families tend to be poor and vulnerable. Yanbu.

As a teacher, you see children who are neglected. SS, especially in deprived areas like ours, are so under funded that even in cases of pretty severe neglect children are not being removed. I always wonder, when you see things on facebook with people saying they’ve had their kids took off them “for no reason”, which is more likely - they actually did have their children removed for no reason or they’re lying. No doubt sometimes SS will make mistakes, especially as they’re underfunded, e.g in the rickets case but surely it’s better than they’re over zealous rather than the opposite and leave children to be neglected whilst it’s investigated?

Would you think that if your children were taken from you yorkie?

I bet you wouldn’t. I bet you wouldn’t think of it as taking one for the team.

People talk about social workers sometimes like we are out to get people, actively trying to steal kids away from their loving families. Like we enjoy it.

I’ve worked alongside a lot of social worker colleagues. Some (most) good, some of whom I wouldn’t want at my door to be brutally honest. But not a one of them would have maliciously tried to take a child away from their family, nor revelled in it. Quite the opposite.

There are definitely debates to be had around forced adoption, but it’s a very emotive subject and difficult to debate for that reason.

@Mammajay is this a new programme btw or the one from 2014?

I'm asking because I wonder if 6 years on, things have improved , at least in this situation, when it comes to investigations and medical advice.