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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be horrified by what I just saw on tv

226 replies

Mammajay · 16/01/2020 17:50

I just watched Panorama I Want My Baby back on 8 London live. I know how vital it is that endangered children are taken into care but these poor parents have been the victims of gross injustice. Mums with vitamin d deficiency have given birth to children with vitamin d deficiency. The babies then suffered rickets and bone fractures. Doctors thought the babies had been abused and the children were taken into care. There were four families and only one got their child back. When a child died ( not one of the 4 families) the parents were charged with causing the death due to the fractures. The pathologist who did the post mortem found the babies bones broke as she handled the body and concluded the child had rickets and vitamin d deficiency so the charges were dropped. Watching the couple and the grandparents whose child had been taken into care going for the final visit before their much loved son / grandson was to be adopted was heart breaking. So, aibu, to think there should be some sort of official inquiry into such cases.

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Sunflowerdaisysummer · 16/01/2020 19:07

Absolutely not fennella but the reasons aren’t really hugely important, to be honest.

While I don’t for one second believe social workers maliciously remove children, I do believe children who are likely to be adopted are removed from families leaving others to fend for themselves. That isn’t right.

FenellaVelour · 16/01/2020 19:12

While I don’t for one second believe social workers maliciously remove children, I do believe children who are likely to be adopted are removed from families leaving others to fend for themselves. That isn’t right.

Definitely not my experience. How attractive a child is as an adoption prospect has never crossed my mind, and I’d be absolutely confident that none of my colleagues would approach things in this way either.

Of course there are some children who are assessed as not suitable for adoption, usually older children who are closely bound to their families. But that doesn’t influence the decision made to come to court if its felt they’re not safe at home.

I’m not personally a supporter of forced closed adoption except in very particular cases, as it happens. The total severing of birth family from a child’s identity is utterly traumatic regardless of the circumstances. I know many others don’t agree with me, however.

Sunflowerdaisysummer · 16/01/2020 19:13

At no point did I use the word attractive.

However, babies and very young children are often removed where slightly older ones are left. That isn’t right.

TinklyLittleLaugh · 16/01/2020 19:15

Of course it should be reversed if the parent is found to be innocent: thats a no brainer. How could an adoptive parent live with themselves knowing their child had been mistakenly taken from their birth parents? It might take a little while to gradually return them, but it should happen.

Sunflowerdaisysummer · 16/01/2020 19:17

When this has been discussed before many have bee strongly against it tinkly

OldQueen1969 · 16/01/2020 19:18

I had this experience 25 years ago - against a huge amount of odds my DC came home after 18 months in foster care.

We still don't know for sure what caused my DCs "fractures" because they were metaphyseal - irregularities in the growth plates at the end of the long bones. Depending on the "expert" consulted, there were either 21, 15 or 12. Only two ever showed a symptom, which I obviously took for professional appraisal. They don't show as healed fractures on childhood X-rays and rarely are discovered unless a child is X-rayed for another reason (or, as in my case, there was a swelling).

My DC was 5 weeks early, and I had pre-eclampsia. He was in hospital for a week after his birth, and at home for five weeks before he was removed from our care. As I knew that nobody had been violently swinging him by his limbs, nor pulling, twisting and shaking at the site of each fracture with enough force to damage bone but leave no external marks, I found out very early on that only a confession would appease the authorities.

My DC had been exclusively BF up until he went into FC. He packed on weight as soon as he was given formula. At that time birth parents were not allowed to express nor breast feed in my area - and the FC placement was an hour away from me. Initially I had "generous" contact of 2 hours per day at the FC home, plus a day at the Family Centre, where I had to prove that I could complete basic tasks. Which I did. Over and over. Whether he had a deficiency was never really addressed - nor was the quality of my milk examined. He was however put on vitamins straight away that the fractures were discovered. he was also treated for anaemia although it wasn't iron defiency anaemia, it was related to copper deficiency, but by the time the blood expert saw his test results, months had passed and he was now normal. On the balance of probabilities this expert had to concur that the other experts in the case were right and it was more likely to be child abuse than anything else.

I was analysed three times by different psychologists and psychiatrists, one of whom thought I might have Borderline personality disorder because I was very upset that the likely outcome of our case was adoption for my DC. Oh, and I had to humble myself and not question experts.

I spent hours on the phone - this was before general internet, discovering that metaphyseal fractures are a bit of a dogma in the CP world, and haven't been properly re- evaluated for over 50 years in terms of cause in neonates - the Websters fell foul of this, and journalist James le Fanu has written a fair bit about it too.

It's a catch 22 situation. Doctors "diagnose" child abuse and the SWs try to figure out why you've done it and they both just pass things back and forth like a hot potato.

I was lied to by doctors - a paediatrician said that it couldn't be brittle bones because his calcium blood levels were normal. Which overlooks that classic brittle bones, or Osteogenesis Imperfecta is a collagen disorder. I have selective hypermobility. Irrelevant apparently.

Oh, and 5 weeks early "isn't really premature"; conversely, he was at higher risk of abuse ..... because he had been born prematurely.

Happy to answer any questions, it sounds unbelievable but I lived it and I still have very clear memories of the whole thing. No, it wasn't the father either. Or any family member.

Children MUST be protected from abuse, no doubt. But there are just a few holes in the system that need addressing - children should not be forcibly adopted if there is doubt over medical issues - and yes, I know FII (MSBP as it was called) is a real risk, but if a case doesn't add up, hammering at the parents until they doubt their own sanity is neither moral, ethical nor in the best interests of the child.

Mammajay · 16/01/2020 19:19

Panicandrun sadly my tape cut out before the endso I don't know when the panorama prog was made. I taped it a couple of days ago. I hope things have improved now because it was heartbreaking to watch what these families endured. I agree with children being taken away from abusive situations but these were innocent families having their lives ruined.

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CodenameVillanelle · 16/01/2020 19:21

I do believe children who are likely to be adopted are removed from families leaving others to fend for themselves.

Bullshit. That is a horrible assertion based on nothing but your own ignorance and prejudice.

CodenameVillanelle · 16/01/2020 19:22

@OldQueen1969 I'm terribly sorry for your experiences, but things have moved on a hell of a lot in 25 years.

ShakeItUp · 16/01/2020 19:23

It smacks of Cleveland back in 1987, which was so shocking it was almost unreal.
I had only been in the UK a couple of months then and I wondered what sort of country I was in that allowed such an atrocity.
Thirty two years later and history is still repeating itself.
Dreadful.

Mammajay · 16/01/2020 19:24

Oldqueen thank you for telling your story. I am so glad you got your baby back - now a 26 year old son. It must have been hell for you. I just hope things have improved.

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Sunflowerdaisysummer · 16/01/2020 19:25

No it isn’t code.

I have no prejudice here. I work in a related field and time and again have seen babies and toddlers removed while four and five year olds are left.

How can that be right?

PanicAndRun · 16/01/2020 19:26

But there are just a few holes in the system that need addressing

I entirely agree to this, on both sides .

Supersimkin2 · 16/01/2020 19:26

Adoption reversal - there's just been a massive case about this in court.

Basikerly, the parents, who had 8 DC between them, were long term drug addicts when their two youngest were removed and put into foster care. The other DC had already been removed into temporary placements.

The foster parents did therapetic parenting, reversed a lot of the DC's developmental problems, fixed the mental illnesses, and two years later applied to adopt.

In the meantime, in the last 6 months of the two years, the DP got clean. One much older DC was returned to them from a temp placement, and that seemed to be going fine.

The birth parents asked the judge to stop the adoption.

He said No. Why? It wasn't in the interests of the DC. He's right - the foster parents are the only parents the DC have ever known, and they're both happy, stable and sane for the first time in their lives.

Reversed adoption may not work for every child.

berlinbabylon · 16/01/2020 19:27

People talk about social workers sometimes like we are out to get people, actively trying to steal kids away from their loving families. Like we enjoy it

It comes across that way at times, like in the Sally Clark case (and that the police were out to get her too, a nice middle class solicitor).

In most of the most serious cases of abuse though, that we tend to hear about, it's always the step dad. Always. Why do mothers get in with these arseholes.

Mammajay · 16/01/2020 19:27

Codename..have things improved? From the programme I saw, they hadn't. But, I think if it was made in 2014 (someone upthread suggested that date) so perhaps things have changed??

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CodenameVillanelle · 16/01/2020 19:27

'A related field'
Do you read the child protection assessments? Are you privy to minutes of legal planning meetings? Do you sit in court during care proceedings?
There is absolutely NO impetus to take babies into care above older children. We go to court for teenagers sometimes if it is warranted. You really have no idea why any of these decisions are made and I GUARANTEE it's nothing to do with adoptability.

PanicAndRun · 16/01/2020 19:29

I work in a related field and time and again have seen babies and toddlers removed while four and five year olds are left.

In completely comparable circumstances?

CodenameVillanelle · 16/01/2020 19:29

Things have improved, they are always improving. Social work is a very dynamic field, responding to legislation, research and legal precedent.

Of course there are failing local authorities but on the whole social work education is excellent and practice is highly accountable and in accordance with the law and government policy. It's a very very regulated area of work.

berlinbabylon · 16/01/2020 19:31

yes, I know FII (MSBP as it was called) is a real risk

I disagree. It was a creation of Roy Meadows who is just as bad as Andrew Wakefield for the damage he did.

OldQueen1969 · 16/01/2020 19:33

@Mammajay

Thank you x Until it happened I had no idea of how the system could turn into a juggernaut, and it took me until he was a teenager to fully feel he was no longer at risk of being removed if I put a foot wrong. He's basically happy and healthy, but suffers joint issues - apparently these are un-related.......

@CodenameVillanelle

I would very much hope so, but these cases still crop up from time to time.

I recently supported someone whose DC has been removed for risk of future emotional harm. It's complex, and while support was required, I was privy to documents which suggest some bad practice still goes on.

Interestingly, apparently statistics on types of Child abuse aren't kept as standard, so in the case of fractures, if there is a pattern of cases where an anomaly that may be of natural origin is occurring, it wouldn't be easy to spot, nor actively searched for.

I am glad to see that Vit D deficiency is now on the radar - it should be tested for routinely in cases of occult or unexplained fractures IMHO.

Sunflowerdaisysummer · 16/01/2020 19:33

Yes code actually.

Don’t assume that because someone (politely!) disagrees with you they do not know exactly what they are talking about.

Mammajay · 16/01/2020 19:34

So I googled panorama I want my baby back. It was made in 2014 and just below it is the mumsnet thread about the programme from 2014. Very interesting reading. I will read the ft from 2014 later.

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SonjaMorgan · 16/01/2020 19:38

SS were amazing when I left my violent ex. For every case that hasn't had the best outcome there will be hundreds that have. You unfortunately cannot eliminate all deaths and not make any mistakes. There was a good piece on radio 4 a few months back that was incredibly interesting.

PeakingDuck · 16/01/2020 19:38

I think adoption should potentially be reversed in extreme cases such as this when there has been a miscarriage of justice.

If, once all investigations have been completed and a judge rules an adoption should go ahead, there was still a chance of adoption being reversed, what do you think would happen to the rate of people stepping forward to adopt?

When is the decision final and impossible to overturn?