Visiting concentration camps

[Helendee]

Am I unreasonable in feeling it is ghoulish at the least to want to visit Auschwitz, Belsen and othersvif their kind?
I was on another site reading how people were booking tours to the above and stating they were “looking forward” to it.
I totally understand the importance of ensuring these monstrosities never happen again but can’t help thinking that some people seem to get some kind of kick from misery.
Please help me to see another side.

I went to one on as part of a school history trip. I was studying world history and part of the course covered the holocaust. I would say before hand I was 'looking forward to going' in the sense I really wanted to learn and understand better, not because it seemed like a fun thing to do or I enjoyed the thought of what happened there, or viewed it as entertainment.

I felt it was something important to do if I could, almost a sort of pilgrimage to pay my respects to those who lost their lives or otherwise suffered horrifically. I'd read Anne Frank's Diary as a child and it was my first introduction to real evil, learning what happened to this ordinary girl who seemed so much like me and my friends. I knew she died in a concentration camp, and I wanted to go for her, and others like her, if that makes sense? I wanted to look into that wickedness and try to understand something that felt incomprehensible to me, to better understand humanity and myself, too.

I honestly don't think it's the same to see films or hear about it, or read descriptions, even see pictures. I was left feeling it was one of the most important things I'd ever done and that every young person should visit a concentration camp at least once if they are able to, if only to better appreciate the scale of what happened in a way numbers in text books can't convey emotionally. I found it an almost spiritual experience and I'm normally not that sort of person.

Have not gone to the concentration camps, but have been to Cambodia.

The killing fields, and the Cambodian death torture prisons where almost no one at all lived -- the one I visited had less than a dozen survivors, and was lined with the photographs of the people who had been killed there. Women with babies. Some already dead, their heads propped up for a ghoulish last image. And one of the survivors had painted the tortures. Indescribable.

The killing fields, pieces of cloth and skull are emerging from the ground still. You will see it there.

I would recommend this sort of site very sincerely to anyone. It takes horror out of the abstract, and shows why we must work very hard to get along with society, and how lucky we are to have the governments we do, even when they are making choices we abhor or that lead to some number of miserable or dead people.

Hear hear @graphista

It makes me so angry when people behave as if the Holocaust has somehow ended genocide.

The holocaust didn't start with mass death camps. It started with othering, criminalization and then deaths. Immigrants, homeless people, disabled people and aboriginal people in 'civilized' western democracies are suffering and dying and it's happening under all our noses. Just like the fine people of the town of Auschwitz.

It's a mark of respect and remembrance. It's educational and enables you to act as an informed witness to those who deny Holocaust.
I've taking my sons to Auschwitz and gone to the killing fields of Cambodia amongst other things and they added to my historical understanding immeasurably.

This. And all the rest. The idea of 'learning lessons from history' is an abstract optimism.

I'm mixed on that. As I've said, I don't think being shown the full horror in one of the camps does as much as one would hope, because I think that can lull us into a false sense of security. If you focus too much on that, the result is that whatever the current political situation, it's never seems that bad because it's not as bad as the Holocaust. Until the day it is as bad as the Holocaust, and at that point, it is too late to protest.

On the other hand, how many of us here notice demonising propaganda at 5 paces? Quite a few I think, and in my case, that's certainly not down to my native wit- it's just education on the matter.

It's been a long time since I read it, but I think maybe all young people today should read Schindler's Ark. (I've never seen the film, so I won't comment on that.) The biographer who wrote Schindler's Ark was, IIRC, very clear on how easily Schindler might have ended up continuing to be a cog in the Nazi machine, and how meeting the right people, in the right place, at the right time put him on the path to the turning point in his life. I think it's that creeping horror and self-reflection that people need. When visitors to Auschwitz contemplate the enormity of how many people were murdered, how can they imagine ever perpetuating such horrors themselves? It is unthinkable.

And yet, people did. Many of them. It takes a lot of people to murder millions of people, after all. How many of them would have thrown up at the idea of committing such atrocities in 1935?

I recall that the biographer detailed Schindler's and other people's memories of the urbane evening dinner parties given by the local concentration camp commandant, a sadistic terror who shot people for fun. How easy it would have been for Schindler to continue to close his eyes to what was happening in the camp below, and to simply exploit concentration camp prisoners for labour in his factory, just like so many other people did across Europe.

“and it's happening under all our noses.” Absolutely!

I and others have had no end of frustrating discussions on here when we try to say this to people.

A shocking number of people in the uk are in huge denial about how certain groups are being treated by our govt NOW!

We are accused of scaremongering and hyperbole when we point out that this is exactly how such atrocities have the potential to start!

The othering, the demonisation, the vilification...

It’s all part of the big picture.

I’ve had mners point blank REFUSE to believe that the sick and disabled face discrimination daily in this country, hell there’s even some in complete denial about racist behaviour in the uk despite numerous news reports!

“how can they imagine ever perpetuating such horrors themselves? It is unthinkable.

And yet, people did. “ so very true

When discussing and being confronted with these events we almost always put ourselves in the place of the victims - we rarely if ever consider the perspective of the perpetrators.

Yes, many of them knew exactly what they were doing but we need to address WHY - NOT to excuse them absolutely not, but to understand and to stop ourselves and others becoming like them.

Fear - of poverty, of lack of resources but also in some cases of becoming victims themselves if “caught” not helping the perpetrators by not handing in people etc

Anger - caused by fear and stoked by propaganda, but also comes from arrogance, a false sense of superiority

Ignorance - not understanding others cultures, religions, ways of life. “Demoting” people in our minds because they aren’t the “same” as us, forgetting that we are ALL human, we all love, hate, fear, hope, desire, repel, feel pain, loss...

Greed - let’s not forget there were people who made an awful lot of money as a result of not only wwii but many wars - whole companies, corporations - even presidencies - are founded on this blood money and are still benefitting now.

We can all be persuaded and seduced by these factors.

I’m a complete wuss it makes me extremely uncomfortable to think what would I have done if I had been eg Anne franks catholic, white, able bodied next door neighbour because we cannot know for certain we’d have behaved the right way if our lives our family’s lives were under direct threat, or if we had been subjected to relentless propaganda convincing us that family’s like the Franks WERE the threat - not to something as abstract and privileged as our way of life but to our actual lives in terms of enough food!

Not an easy thought process to confront - but necessary I think.

I’m a complete wuss it makes me extremely uncomfortable to think what would I have done if I had been eg Anne franks catholic, white, able bodied next door neighbour

Most people didn't do the right thing. Chances are we wouldn't have either. People imagine themselves helping a little girl, but the reality is a whole family your entire system has taught you to hate. Would people hide the Somali family? Or the homeless man?

I’m a complete wuss it makes me extremely uncomfortable to think what would I have done if I had been eg Anne franks catholic, white, able bodied next door neighbour because we cannot know for certain we’d have behaved the right way if our lives our family’s lives were under direct threat, or if we had been subjected to relentless propaganda convincing us that family’s like the Franks WERE the threat - not to something as abstract and privileged as our way of life but to our actual lives in terms of enough food!

That is something I have thought about every week, since I was about 12. Every time I feel too awkward in the moment to confront sly racist comments, I end up dwelling on all the people who might have approved of hiding men, women and children like Anne Frank, and were too terrified to do so. If I cannot power through a bit of social awkwardness to say, "what do you mean by that" with an accompanying headtilt, then I can't assure myself that I would have dared hide anyone in my attic either.

I've always thought the entire point of 'Never Again' (hah...) is making a determination that you won't be a perpetrator and taking steps to work on your potential level of compliance.

YABVU. The best way to respect what happened to people is to remember them and to learn what happened to them to fully understand the horror. It’s the best way to try to prevent anything like it happening again. Concentration camps and similar sites such as the Killing Fields in Cambodia are so, so important. They are a reminder of what human beings are capable of. Things like this happen again, and again, and again, throughout history. Human beings can be monsters capable of great evil. This potential lies within every one of us. Hatred and fear of other human beings can cause us to do unspeakable things. There is NOTHING we can do to say ‘I’m so sorry’ to the people who died in these places. The only thing we can do is go, and quietly acknowledge them, and learn what happened, and vow that we will do everything we can do try to be good people and live good lives and prevent anything even close to what happened to them from happening again. I went to the concentration camps and the Killing Fields and I still sob when I think about it, it was so, so awful. But I’m glad I went because by going I’ve at least acknowledged those people and their suffering. I learned so much. And if we all learn about what happened and our children learn and other people learn then there’s a chance that history won’t be repeated.

A respectful visit I can understand. Taking selfies should be an arrestable crime!

I've always thought the entire point of 'Never Again' (hah...) is making a determination that you won't be a perpetrator and taking steps to work on your potential level of compliance.

That's a really good way of looking at it.

I'm bisexual, I've at times found it incredibly hard to confront people who've made homophobic comments in front of me - usually they don't know I'm bi - and it's even harder when you're dealing with people who REFUSE to accept what they said was in any way wrong.

You'd think that most people who do this sort of thing would fold when told

"Actually I'm bi and what you said is really offensive"

For anyone unaware I can assure they don't - some will really ramp it up! And it can be so hard to know what to do in those situations and I'm not sure I've yet found the correct answer.

Especially as at times those people have become aggressive in their stance and they're usually bigger and stronger than me so naturally self preservation kicks in and I walk away - but then I get annoyed at myself for allowing myself to be bullied by these arseholes!

I've also, shamefully, when much younger had times when I failed to speak up on behalf of my family/friends who are not white, who are of different religions and who dress differently so that their religion is clear, when they were jeered at and name called.

I wish I had not only had the right words/phrases to say but that I'd had the courage to say them.

I've even had conversations with those people where I've apologised for those times and they have very graciously either forgiven or they've said there's nothing to forgive. Lovely of them but I fear untrue.

And I try and ensure I do so now every time some dick makes a stupid comment or treats them differently.

But I fear I don't always realise and that I don't always make their lives easier as a result.

I think in terms of education and preventing future atrocities such places are only one possible component in prevention.

My dad's side of the family are quite racist, homophobic, etc to the point a more distant relative was arrested for a hate crime. I can easily see how I and/or my brother could have adopted their world view if we did not have other influences, and education.

I believe it was a mix of experiences and education over many years, of which that experience was one, which mean I have very different opinions and thoughts.

It troubles me that not everyone learns about atrocities such as the holocaust and the finer details of how they came about at school. I only did as I chose a history option which focused partly on this as a teenager. I feel very lucky I studied this and also went to see important places associated with the holocaust, including the building where the final solution was discussed and ratified. I sat in the very room where the meeting happened and listened to a lecture about the build up to that point, among other experiences. My friend with Jewish heritage standing next to me, or crying with me in the concentration camp when it became real for us both she would have been murdered, and so would potentially I and the rest of our friends if we tried to protect her and her family, including her little brother. One of the buildings had recently been vandalised by Neo Nazis, so it suddenly brought the reality of it and that this wasn't just about the past. There were people who seriously would want that to happen, to young women like us, and we couldn't allow that to happen. We had a responsibility to do our best to prevent it from reoccurring rather than just think we wouldn't be taken in or commit such acts ourselves.

I've since found with the current rise in populism and nationalism again within European politics and in America, that when I express concern, many people have not had the education to see the similarity to past events, which should act as warnings. It's not necessarily they don't agree there are parallels, some people I know aren't even aware of events preceding atrocities which comparisons could be made to. They know and believe the Holocaust happened, but see it as this extraordinary thing nothing should be compared to as it was so awful and don't know HOW it came about, or the role of ordinary people, and how they were manipulated and indoctrinated by gov, press, political parties, etc.

We still very much need sites like concentration camps and education, including in schools, books, film, comics. Fictional versions, too, showing the underlying mechanics. All are important pieces of a greater picture. I think with the current political climate, more than ever before in recent history.

I'm bisexual, I've at times found it incredibly hard to confront people who've made homophobic comments in front of me - usually they don't know I'm bi - and it's even harder when you're dealing with people who REFUSE to accept what they said was in any way wrong.

I hope people would learn but they don't. I've actually said, "Jon, I'm part Polish' about five times to the same friend who thinks the Polish are all the things the Mail tells him to think. He still thinks it. And I think still doesn't acknowledge my heritage because that doesn't fit in his rhetoric.

I have visited Auschwitz/Birkenau as well as Dachau. I definitely wouldn't have said I was looking forward to the visits, nor did I enjoy them as such. But having studied both world wars and the holocaust in History at school, I found seeing these places in real life very powerful. Like it really drove home just how torturous and horrific the whole thing was at a personal level as well as a societal level. It made the history real I suppose. And for this reason, I think anyone who can, should visit these places. To understand just how vital it is to stop the slide towards acceptance of such actions long before history repeats itself.

I’ve visited Bergen Belsen and Dachau, and Anne Frank’s house. I arranged a trip to Dachau for our (teenage female) youth group. Our tour guide was a young German woman who had bonded really well with the girls, and who was able to talk to them very frankly about how she as a teenager had struggled to comprehend the atrocities committed by her people. She couldn’t make sense of her countrymen (friends, neighbours) being part of such a terrible reality. She said she went on a research mission from around 13-15, reading everything she could get her hands on, survivors accounts, history texts. She explained that for many years in Germany such things were forbidden, and that no one spoke of the holocaust at all - the political will was to raze to the ground every camp and essentially never mention it again. The move to commemorate the sites and use them as an educational tool came much later, and now every German school child must visit at least one camp, and learn the history. She discussed appropriate behaviour and encouraged the girls to not move in groups, but to spend time alone, thinking about the history and parallels with today. She asked them not to take photographs/ selfies. She told them she wouldn’t be accompanying them around the site - she would wait in the cafe and would stay there the whole time. Any girl who became overwhelmed or felt they couldn’t take any more could go and sit with her at any point, to chat or just to be quiet in company.
These camps represent such a huge moment in history, and are a defining aspect in understanding humanity. You cannot comprehend the enormity of the Holocaust, but you can feel the edges.
These events are so enormous that the more people who understand the social and human factors the better. Shying away from the awful truth is what the Germans did for years.

@nachthexe , I agree, It is may be a cliche but have taken my son to some of the museums in Berlin to understand the Holocaust. It was moving ( and that it not even seeing the camps. ) A friend of my son went to a camp and they were told not to take photographs . I do think some respect is due & even though times have changed - this is not a selfie place. Do try to respect those who went through things which we cannot even imagine. But on the other hand , make sure young people will remember it . Well - that it is and others will have better opinions

The Rohinga in Myanmar, The Nuer in Sudan - two of five ongoing genocides. Rwanda,Kosovo - two recent genocides. We have learned nothing and never again is a meaningless platitude. The people who visit concentration camps are those who don’t need to go. The ones who do need to go probably never will.

I’m Jewish. History lessons , books and my own traumatised relatives from the last generation (not holocaust victims though) are all the awareness I need. It was terrible. Racism is terrible. What is happening in various parts of the world right now to ethnic minorities is terrible. Will anyone visiting Auschwitz etc end it. No.

@MrsTerryPratchett as I recently noted on a completely separate thread (dv - victims in denial) the true psychological denial some have is quite a bizarre thing to witness.

It shocks, angers and saddens me how little our children are taught in school about what led up to wwii, to other wars and conflicts and I can't help but feel extremely worryingly that this is deliberate...

Not to protect them but so that they are malleable, persuadable...

Hell in England and Wales they aren't even properly taught how our political system and govt works, again I Absolutely think this is deliberate.

A respectful visit I can understand. Taking selfies should be an arrestable crime!

Several people have mentioned selfies. I'm going to stand up for young people. When I visited places like this or read about it when I was young, I would probably have written about it in my diary. There's lots of self-reflective stuff in there.

Teenagers now diarise their lives in pictures. Insta and similar is how they document the important things in their life. I don't understand it but I do know that they have been raised to think that pictures and sharing them is how you remember things, how you process things.

It might be unhealthy, it's certainly irritating but is it as disrespectful as people seem to think? Is it an arrestable offence? I'd argue that their intent is not offensive and if we don't want young people to think like this, maybe we should stop plastering their images all over the internet for Likes from the moment they are born.

x-post Graph. I agree that educating children with critical thinking, good political and historical knowledge and teaching them to question authority is important and there is a conscious effort not to currently.

Religion is no longer the opiate of the masses, the media is.

I know that I, personally, could not visit these places and I am amazed and appalled that they are now treated as holiday destinations. You only need to see some of the selfies on SM to realise how many view them as light entertainment.

I have great love and respect for the Jewish race and how they have endured centuries of persecution; let alone our own family members that spent time there. My very elderly neighbour was one of the first British troops to enter Belsen when the war ended and it had a huge negative impact on his life.

I can understand the point of wanting to honour your ancestors by visiting, but IMHO that is the only valid reason to go there

I would be a crying, snotty mess on my first view and couldn't physically walk through those gates. But I am an empath and feel other people's pain very keenly.

I would never go. In fact, my whole family has avoided Europe entirely since WW2. I would go to Ireland, that's it.

I’d find it very interesting but out of respect I wouldn’t go bragging online let alone post a picture, how crass.

Agree with Graphista and the last few posts. The “we went so we will never forget and learn from it” is trite nonsense to justify a ghoulish trip.

I agree with jakinaboxx that if the survivors and the families wish it to remain open then that’s of course what should happen. Their opinion is really the only one that should be listened to.
I agree too.
I have met 2 Auschwitz survivors who were there as children. One of them has gone back to Auschwitz every year on his mother’s birthday to honour her memory - the way he put it, he can’t just pop down the local cemetery like most people can. The other one doesn’t talk about it and has never gone back.