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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Visiting concentration camps

418 replies

Helendee · 15/01/2020 18:17

Am I unreasonable in feeling it is ghoulish at the least to want to visit Auschwitz, Belsen and othersvif their kind?
I was on another site reading how people were booking tours to the above and stating they were “looking forward” to it.
I totally understand the importance of ensuring these monstrosities never happen again but can’t help thinking that some people seem to get some kind of kick from misery.
Please help me to see another side.

OP posts:
Blitzen2 · 15/01/2020 22:00

I feel the same. I think it’s awful allowing people to walk around and take pictures of where so many people suffered. The places should remain and never be touched but some of the general public who visit don’t give these areas the respect it deserves.

Songsofexperience · 15/01/2020 22:00

I recommend reading Vassili Grossman. His descriptions are gut wrenching.

Fightingmycorner2019 · 15/01/2020 22:05

I think if we see it as honouring the victims , such that they are not forgotton

I know exactly what you mean but I think it’s such an important part of history , and just humanity
Clearly much else has occurred , but we have this accessible to learn from

LunaHardy · 15/01/2020 22:07

@FenellaMaxwell well said Thanks

SheSawHorsesHorsesHorses · 15/01/2020 22:07

My parents did visit Auchswitz and were affecte dby it but glad they went (Dad has Jewish ancestry but far back- as far as we know his family came from E Europe in the 1880s and lived in the UK since then. we did have a gentile relative who was a POW in WW2. He never spoke of his experiences. Mum is part Roma, but also way back. Both of them felt it was important for them to go.

Neither of them could get over the fact that Auchswitz itself is not in the middle of nowhere. How on earth did nobody in the town of Auchswitz not know what was going on??? They must have smelt the burning flesh, seen the ashes? How could anyone have carried on as normal knowing what was going on?

BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 15/01/2020 22:11

The Holocaust was and remains the single biggest atrocity in European history. That anyone thinks that the remnants of that should be destroyed is just sickening.

TodayNoMore · 15/01/2020 22:13

I visited Auschwitz-Birkenau about 10 years ago. It was a numbing experience. The mounds of glasses, hair, shoes and so on, and the savage treatment of innocent men, women, children and even babies, before they met their ultimate fate.

No words do the place justice, or can describe the atrocities that were committed there.

SaintGarbo · 15/01/2020 22:15

Unless we, as humans have lived an experience the feelings surrounding that experience are only what we think they we will be.

Seeing and feeling is the second best thing to really understand other people suffering.

JamieVardysHavingAParty · 15/01/2020 22:19

Bernadette You've said that twice, in slightly different forms. It didn't become a more nuanced viewpoint the second time. It is less tacky in the revised form, I grant.

As it happens, I don't think that they should be destroyed for various reasons, but if I did, telling me that you found my opinion sickening would not change my mind.

The house where Fred and Rosemary West killed and buried fewer than 30 people was demolished. Is it so awful that someone could look at a set of buildings constructed in order to murder hundreds of thousands and be filled with horror to see them still standing?

FagAsh · 15/01/2020 22:20

I visited one as part of a school trip.
It was gruelling.
I have never forgotten it and am not especially sensitive.
You just come out feeling so despairing of humanity.

So... Yes, they're.... Important.
You probably do get some sick fucks going around as some sort of nazi fetishism but I would say most people are probably more likely to feel like me.

AlwaysThinkingOfNames · 15/01/2020 22:28

I am a history lover. For me, it's not about the ghastly events at those kind of places- it's more about really feeling the enormity of it, if that makes sense. A feeling of "that really happened" rather than something in a history book.

Mummy0ftwo12 · 15/01/2020 22:29

I went and agree with what a PP said about the enormity of it.

Graphista · 15/01/2020 22:36

There are clearly some who go for the wrong reasons and don’t show appropriate respect or reverence.

However I have to note the hypocrisy of those on this very thread also berating those people - while simultaneously making trite comments about how we must ensure it “never happens again”...

Because it has and continues to happen again all the time all over the world.

Are you meaning in Europe? Because it’s happened again in Europe too or are you meaning to Western Europe? Which is a fairly narrow remit.

Unless and until we do all we possibly can to prevent ANYONE being targeted for their religion, race, class or other group identifiers we cannot claim to have stopped it happening again.

And yes it terrifies me that in the uk, USA and Western Europe we seem to again be capitulating to extremist, bigoted and othering politics and policies that are targeting many of the same groups that the nazis did:

Mentally ill
Learning disabled
Physically disabled
Romany
Travellers
Anyone with colouring other than European!
Immigrants...

If you REALLY want to pay due respect to those lost to that regime work towards it not being replicated HERE again and to imploring OUR politicians and policy makers to not support it happening elsewhere too.

“People recite "never again" all the time, and then trot off and participate in offering about "benefit scroungers" or "illegal immigrants" or whoever the latest scapegoated segment of society is. Behaviour like that is what created the environment where the holocaust could occur.” Exactly! Happens on here frequently!

“but I fail to see the correlation...seeking to flee terrible situations” what exactly do you THINK they are fleeing?! The exact same type of situation as the Jews and other races and groups were fleeing in wwii - othering, being attacked because of their race, religion, nationality... it’s the same thing!

“in which most countries in Europe either suffered huge losses or were complicit. It’s not the same.” Please DO explain exactly how it’s “not the same”? Could it possibly be because it’s happening to people who aren’t European? Or will you argue it’s a numbers game? That it’s only “important” when it’s millions and not when it’s thousands or hundreds when every life is precious?

I also worked with a Jewish guy who had worked in the Middle East, diplomatic service, he didn’t say much of his experiences there but he did say that some Jews sadly seemed to have learned from their experiences in wwii in Europe not that such horrors should never happen again, but instead how to perpetrate them against others. What a human mind must go through to even consider that I cannot imagine.

@Ineedtogethealthy - well done that artist for rightly shaming those disgraceful people!

I have a slightly different perspective here as I also lived in Germany for a few years. In addition to the actual historic sites and how they’re being preserved, Germany as a nation do a LOT to teach their younger generations about how they ended up doing what they did.

Because what people also often forget is that while the overall horror was orchestrated and planned by the “higher ups” they couldn’t have possibly carried it all out without “ordinary” Germans being willing and able to do the dirty work!

I also saw some harrowing, shocking documentaries made in Germany interviewing the very people who had carried out these atrocities - this was in the 90’s so 40/50 years later and do you know what the TRULY horrifying part was?! They still held the same views and didn’t think they had done anything wrong.

I spoke with German women who had married into uk army about some of this (hopefully without causing offence) and they were very open and said that sadly there were still a lot of the older German folk genuinely believed what had happened was

Right
Acceptable
Necessary

And who still hated having to live near or work with or have their families in communities with “non Arians”. Some had experienced being cut off by parents and grandparents because they married “the enemy”.

It did not happen in a closed nazi bubble.

I have polish Jewish next door neighbours, I have heard them being abused in the street and by other neighbours for their nationality and for their race and religion.

I have family and friends of all backgrounds living in various parts of the uk, the Jewish and Muslim ones in particular (but not solely) I know get a lot of nasty verbal abuse, things thrown at them, graffiti on their homes and cars, faeces through their letterboxes...

And that’s here in the uk today!

Seems we haven’t learnt much at all really

“do most other genocides happen in situ?” Not always.

We have a prime minister openly courting fascists and fascism fgs. The time for meaningless platitudes is over. hear hear!

“You step on the pathto the Holocaust whenever you hear of people suffering in incarceration, and say "well, they broke a law", without asking yourself first, "is this law just?" and "is this penalty just?"” Absolutely

PattiPrice · 15/01/2020 22:41

How on earth did nobody in the town of Auchswitz not know what was going on???

They did know. They had to have known. A sense of helplessness, fear, brainwashed. Who knows.

I wonder if those who disagree with visiting camps have been? I find it hard to believe anyone who has been would say it should be closed to the public other than those who have direct links. Imo we should be reminded of it frequently lest we forget and the horror fades away.....

Letsnotusemyname · 15/01/2020 22:42

I’m not sure looking forward to it is the right expression - but I can see where people are coming from.

If I was nearby I think I’d want/need to visit. But I'd want to go by myself and not have to think/worry about anyone with me. I’d not want a guided tour either.

I’ve never been to one and I’d have a sense of nervousness about it, could I cope etc?

Do they have gift shops? What sort of things do they sell, is it appropriate.

My daughter visited the killing fields in Cambodia. She wasn’t born when all of that kicked off. I think it moved her.

Wingedserpentfliesbynight · 15/01/2020 22:43

There are people who deny the Holocaust ever happened, or claim that the numbers were far lower than there really were. The victims of the camps and witnesses to the holocaust are dying of old Age.
Everyone should go IMHO.

jayho · 15/01/2020 22:51

I might not express this coherently but.

A visit to a death camp is like visiting a memorial, acknowledging that something awful happened there, recognising it and paying homage.

It is also acknowledging that white, christian, largely benign allowed this to happen because of getting swept up into some (now) inexplicable sense of nationalism. It must never be allowed to happen again.

yolofish · 15/01/2020 22:52

If I was close to one, I would visit out of respect, same as if I was in NY I would visit the WTC memorial.

I wouldnt look forward to it... there is a village in France called Oradour sur Glanes, where the Germans shot all the men in the streets, and put the women and children into the church and set fire to it. It is very chilling.

JamieVardysHavingAParty · 15/01/2020 22:54

Auschwitz was not a well-kept secret. Not everyone knew, but it wasn't just the people who worked there who knew, either.

This is a translated extract from a pamphlet published in 1942 by the White Rose, a German resistance movement in Munich.

We do not wish to address the Jewish question in this leaflet, nor do we wish to pen a case for the defense. No – we would like to mention by way of example the fact that since Poland was conquered, three hundred thousand Jews have been murdered in that country in the most bestial manner imaginable. In this we see a terrible crime against the dignity of mankind, a crime that cannot be compared with any other in the history of mankind.

Jews are human beings too – it makes no difference what your opinion is regarding the Jewish question – and these crimes are being committed against human beings. Perhaps someone will say, the Jews deserve this fate. Saying this is in itself a colossal effrontery.

But let us assume that someone has said this. How can he face the fact that the entire population of aristocratic Polish youth has been exterminated (would God that the extermination is not yet complete!)? You may ask, and in what manner has this taken place? All male offspring of aristocratic families between 15 and 20 years old are sent to concentration camps in Germany as forced labor. All the girls of the same age group are being sent to the SS brothels in Norway!

JamieVardysHavingAParty · 15/01/2020 22:55

P.S. Translation (c) 2002-2003 Ruth Hanna Sachs

white-rose-studies.org/Leaflet_2.html

NoCountry · 15/01/2020 22:56

Srebrenica massacre, Rwanda genocide - 50 years after WWII with the Nazi concentration camps open for everyone to 'learn the lessons' yet the world stood by and allowed it to happen.

Ibizafun · 15/01/2020 22:57

Op I assure you nobody gets a kick. My grandpa was in Bergen Belsen and survived. I want my children and in time their children to go as I want people to never forget what mankind is capable of. It could happen again.

NoCountry · 15/01/2020 22:58

because of getting swept up into some (now) inexplicable sense of nationalism

It isn't inexplicable now, it's all around us as a number of posters have pointed out

NewYearsRevolution2020 · 15/01/2020 23:02

There was a video I saw on YouTube several years ago that I will try and find. In it, a young Dutch woman speaks to some visiting German older men who had all been in a regiment together. They are in a factory, I think. She asks them about the war and their role in it and they are surprised at her question. They are almost incredulous once she talks about the German occupation of the NL. Their response is very clear: that they were protecting the west from their perceived threat from the East. They still believed this. They kept referring to Russia and disparaging the comments the Dutch woman made.

It reveals a lot, I think about why these things continue. If you marshall a strong enough narrative of civil rights, survival, heritage on to any group of people and make them feel sufficiently threatened whilst positing an ‘other’ then they will do anything.

It is a tactic that needs deconstructing sufficiently in order to understand its power.

NeckPainChairSearch · 15/01/2020 23:05

Srebrenica massacre, Rwanda genocide - 50 years after WWII with the Nazi concentration camps open for everyone to 'learn the lessons' yet the world stood by and allowed it to happen

This. And all the rest. The idea of 'learning lessons from history' is an abstract optimism.

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