How to deal with a toxic sister?

[northernnamechange]

Hi, As some of you may remember I wrote a post last year named ‘to risk her harming my baby’ to briefly explain my sisters daughter/my niece (8) was having and vocalising intrusive thoughts about physically harming my son (now 20 months) The MN response was unanimous in that I should protect my son at all costs and subsequently deal with the fall out from my sister and mum (who back then agreed with my sister that my niece was of no danger to my son).
Many months have passed and I have not seen my sister and niece. Over the Christmas period my mum and I started to build bridges, she has admitted where she went wrong, explained how much she misses my son and we are back to what I would call normal which is great!
As normal I have been visiting my Mum and Dads house with my son whilst my husband is at work.
I am timing my visits around not bumping into my niece as I still feel she is danger to my son (my niece is at my parents most afternoons as my Mum does the school run).
My sister found out yesterday that me and my mum have smoothed things over and that I am now popping into my mums for the odd cuppa. To put it bluntly, all hell has broke loose.
She sent a joint message to me and my husband last night. My sister explained that she doesn’t want me and my son at my mums house, she doesn’t want to risk us bumping into niece who is there every afternoon. She has somehow painted herself as the victim in this situation and is now accusing myself and my husband of bullying my niece as we pointed out to her that wanting to smash our baby sons head through a glass table wasn’t normal. Honestly as I write this down it sounds even more ridiculous 🙈 My Sister will ‘never forgive us’ for painting her daughter in a negative light and for apparently teaching her that even family members can drop you at any second. She went on to say that my husband and I have created a divide in the family and that’s it’s our fault we are unable to all get together for birthdays etc. Her message went on and on and on bringing up silly mistakes I made in my teens (I had mental health problems well in to my 20s, I’m 33 now) to full blown lies. It was genuinely slanderous. I also think she was attempting to embarrass me in front of my husband. My husband and I didn’t rise to it and blocked her.

Me and my sister live very different lives, I am happily married, live in a happy and loving home and want for nothing (not bragging, just painting the picture). My sister hasn’t got a pot to piss in, spends her time smoking weed/parting whilst sleeping around and getting cheated on by her baby father (she’s 30 soon). Her life is dire (some of you may remember her daughters father spent time in prison). She does work now though so that’s something.
I’ve spent so many years feeling sorry for her whilst dealing with her toxic, jealous, unhinged behaviour. I don’t know how to deal with this? She’s utterly exhausting and I’ve had enough now.
Do I stop going to my Mums just to avoid all of this shit? Or is that giving her exactly what she wants? Should I restrict my relationship with my mum because my sister demands so just for an easy life?
Do I stop attending family gatherings because she will be there? It goes without saying that she is a very angry and aggressive person, I really don’t want to be around her.
I will be going NC with her (not unblocking her anytime soon) but will this as she says cause a family divide?
My Mum is truly in the middle but has explained to my sister that my son and I are as welcome at her home as she is.
Thank you for reading, that was longer than expected x

Do I stop going to my Mums just to avoid all of this shit

Absolutely not!

It sounds like your mum is supporting you so you can continue to see your mum/dad as normal.

Well done for not rising to her abusive email.

I can see why your niece behaved the way she did, God knows what your sister talks about when you’re not there.

I’d just grey rock your sister and carry on

I remember your original post. So your sister hasnt done anything to deal with her dd s dangerous and odd behaviour, the only thing is she s not near your baby?
Yanbu to have a relationship with your parents and not your sister.
Is she totally blind to her child s problems?
Wanting to badly hurt a baby at age 8 and saying how she would do so is not normal.

No, don't stop going round your mums. She has no right to demand this. Continue NC.

Simple!

"So your sister hasnt done anything to deal with her dd s dangerous and odd behaviour,"

Neither have any of the other close family members.

OP don't stop going to your mum's and perhaps you and your Mum start to address the issues that your Niece has.

Why should you and your dd miss out spending time with your mum?
You go while the niece isn’t there, so there’s no issues . Is your mum enjoying seeing you and do you enjoy going? If yes keep going

Ignore your sister and starve her of the oxygen of your attention. You've done nothing wrong.

It's your DM's house and she gets to say who visits, not your DS (or TS!) Is your DM strong and calm enough not to engage, either? TS will need to calm down if she wants the (free?) childcare to continue. I think the two of you need to present a united front of at all possible.

Thank you for your reply's so far. The support really helps.
I am liking the idea of carrying on as normal and going to my Mums and just ignoring my sisters meltdowns! Easier said than done though I suppose 🙈
To answer a few questions, when my niece originally vocalised these thoughts my husband and I immediately said that this wasn't normal and that she needed professional help. We were slaughtered by my sister and mum for saying this. We even discussed SS at one point as my niece is more than likely being exposed to violence and drugs. My husband and I were told we were exaggerating it all for attention. As much as it broke my heart we decided not to get involved and just remove our son from the situation.
My sister is still in absolute denial and will not listen to reason. In her eyes me and my husband are the enemy for speaking the truth. The abuse we receive from her is deflection at its finest.
My Mum has been really strong so far, by her saying to my sister that both her daughters are welcome in her house is a big step for her (my mum hates conflict with my sister as she is very aggressive)
My sister is threatening to get 'a mate' to do the school run so my mum won't have to do it. Whilst I can never see this happening (her mates would struggle getting out of bed for 3pm - seriously) this is upsetting my mum as basically my sister is stopping contact with my niece. My mums house is the only positive place my niece has (bar school). What a mess 🙈
I am a nice person by default but this situation is making me feel so angry. I am angry for my mum being manipulated this way, I am angry for the failures on my nieces care and I am angry at my disgusting sister for being the root cause of all this.
Who knew 1 individual could cause this much pain 😢

I remember your thread, I think you did the right thing to not response and just block, a reaction is obviously what she wanted to continue her victim role. Your sister can’t dictate whether or not you go to your mums house so please carrying on seeing your mum and building bridges, don’t let your sister ostracise you from your family.

So hang on, your poor niece has received no help at all from anyone?! Please please contact SS and get her some help. Poor kid!

My eldest son had these sorts of thoughts about my youngest son. He found them horrifically upsetting, felt very guilty and was terrified it meant he might actually hurt him. He was referred to camhs (for this and other reasons). Has anybody suggested this for your niece? It needs to be looked into. In our case, everybody was quite satisfied that he wouldn’t act on these thoughts and he had a lot of counselling based around the idea that these are just thoughts and he can just think them and move on. He went through a particularly bad phase accompanied by many tics and odd compulsions, which have largely died down now. His camhs therapist was required to report to SS as a possible safeguarding incident but we were never contacted so assume they were satisfied that he wasn’t a danger and was receiving appropriate help.

So I would say that the thoughts don’t necessarily mean she would do anything or that she is somehow inherently bad. Social services also didn’t think they needed to intervene BUT that may have been because I had accessed help and was obviously never leaving them alone together.

I wouldn’t stop going to your mom’s house at all and would continue to protect your son by avoiding niece. What does your mom think of these thoughts? Is there any way she could access some help for her? She might have these thoughts in other situations and find them distressing. And it’s a good idea to get her some help to make sure she doesn’t act on them.

If your niece's behaviour is so dangerous and odd (I think your assessment is spot on, and no exaggeration) I can't imagine that this is its only manifestation. Have her school picked up on this? As the child's aunt, you probably aren't close enough to be seen getting involved.
It is a positive development that your mother has moved away from her unreasoning support for your sister's impossible assertions.
If you know her working hours, at least you can avoid bumping into her at your Mum's house, which isn't much, but it's a start; your mum has made her first difficult step, and really needs your continued support.

I had a very toxic relationship with my sister for years (later found a lot of it was due to my mum for some inexplicable reason playing us both off against each other, twisting the truth etc.) has taken us a long long time to overcome and we now communicate direct if my mum says something has been said about the other to clarify (and can now laugh about her antics). It was incredibly hard, not helped by the fact sister is bipolar and had severe anger management issues and anxiety (now hugely improved and controlled).

Toxic family can be hellish, the phrase 'blood is thicker than water' is only ever trotted out (in my experience) to justify shitty behaviour you wouldn't put up with from anyone else but it's expected you will as you're related!

Glad your mum is supporting you and remaining neutral saying you're both welcome in her home. Hopefully she doesn't give in to the emotional blackmail and threats to reduce contact with niece. If anything sounds like organising time so you don't bump into each other is a realistic way of handling this, and not just all to suit toxic sister.

Good luck OP, and agree to prevent any unsupervised contact whatsoever between DS and DN. Safety first, DN behaviour does not sound normal and potentially a reaction to other things she's being exposed to from what you've said.

@Throckmorton unfortunately no, my niece is not receiving any help. It breaks my heart. As 'Aunt' I am in no place to raise any concerns to the school. I've looked into ringing SS but as far as I am aware I can't do that anonymously (which would be my only option as the fall-out could put me and my family in danger due to my nieces violent/criminal father). I fully agree she needs help.
@Hmpher thank you for post, it's warming to see a happy ending to a similar situation. I will mention camhs to my mum as an option/discussion she can have with my sister. This will be the first time I mention my nieces violent thoughts to my mum since last year as I have avoided the discussion as previously my mum defended my niece as 'only being 8 years old' and 'didn't mean it'. Although when sorting things out with my Mum over Christmas she did apologise for this and admitted there could be a possibility niece could hurt my son if left unattended.
@lynzpynz your post was very interesting... thank you.
And thank you to everyone else for your support. It is helping me a great deal x

Of course you can raise it with the school - just tell them what you know and let them look into it. I can see why you want to avoid SS due to the risk to your family though.

Could your mum come and visit you at your house occasionally OP rather than you going round there all the time?

You can talk to the HT in confidence( highly doubt it'll be a surprise) as they are probably the safeguarding officer

I would speak to the school. Your niece is a child and the need to protect her is more than the need to placate your sister.

And otherwise just keep doing what you're doing. Your niece goes to school, she wont ever randomly bump into your son, she is not going to be turning up at lunchtime for example. Your sister is trying to threaten your mum but I doubt she means it - she is unlikely to be able to find a friend to do the school run all the time or pay for wraparound care

Thank you again everyone.
@TopOftheNaughtyList I could have my mum over to my house (we did this during December whilst we were working things out) but it just feels wrong that I even need to do this in order to please my unreasonable sister? It's giving in to her demands but I do see your point. Also I like to get out of the house some days, I love being a SAHM but cabin fever strikes often!

That's interesting what the two PPs have said about mentioning this to the school. I've been told previously that I wouldn't be able to discuss my niece as I am not a parent/guardian. Would I be able to do this anonymously do you think? Maybe a letter?
I am in two minds:

1. I feel yes I should do this and get my niece the help she deserves and also give my sister a kick up the ass as she will have to admit that there is a problem/change her scumbag ways
2. I feel stay out of it, it's none of my business and i will only make things worse for my own family (selfish I know). Time will show that my niece has issues and my sister will have to deal with that in the future.

I don't know what to do for the best.

You can report her anonymously to social services through the NSPCC website if your worried. Your niece needs help, what she said isn’t normal and your sister is not a fit mother. Don’t stop visiting your mums house though, this is all down to your sister not stepping up and taking action. Why should you hide away?

Your poor niece! Of course it's your business if a child may be witnessing or subject to abuse! How will you feel down the line if you know you could have helped her sooner, but chose not to? The more time you leave it, the more damaged she could become. The school won't tell you anything about her, but that doesn't stop you telling them what you know so they can protect her.

School won’t discuss your niece with you but you can raise any safeguarding concerns with them, just as you would any child you had concerns about

Ignore it and carry on as you are

it's Social Services you need to be speaking to about your niece - especially as she has such a neglectful mother who doesn't give two shits about her child's mental health or getting her support....because for her smoking weed and feeding her own ego is more important.

Your mother needs to stop pandering to her emotional blackmail too and call her bluff. Your sister needs your mum's free handouts/babysitting too much to let the 'no contact with niece go on forever.
Funny how your mum didn't care so much about losing 'contact' with YOUR child but is 'upset' at the mere thought of not seeing this one.....

Your mum chooses to enable your sister - and she sacrificed you and your child to continue pandering to the favourite one.
She has the power and authority to give her other child a good talking to and set boundaries but she chooses not to.
She could easily stop the daily babysitting and tell her lazy, selfish, trouble causing, neglectful daughter to pull her finger out and take responsibility of her parental duties - but she won't because your mum's own ego gets something out of this arrangement.

You're being manipulated into making the 'best decision for all'....that way YOU choose to step back and any feelings you have of being treated unfairly, of your sister being the favourirte one - you won't have a leg to stand on to call your mum out on that because it will have been 'your' decision to do whatever you're thinking of doing to minimise the backlash.

Your mum needs to deal with this and make the decision on how to deal with it - yet here she is playing innocent victim - like she's had no part to play in how your sister turned out or still behaves.

I find this really sad. I have OCD and have severe intrusive thoughts to the point I cry my eyes out, but I would never act on them and statistically am less likely to hurt anyone in this way than others because of the immense fear. So it upsets me that you’ve all isolated your niece and called her dangerous when she clearly needs help, not to be treated like a demon.