To distance myself from friend because of her dog training?

[VallyRey]

Friend and I bought puppies at the same time (so similar age). Not on purpose, we’d actually lost contact and happened to turn up to the same training course. Mine is a cross husky, hers is a Doberman. Very early on her dog showed dodgy behaviour, pinning other puppies to the ground and biting their necks. She was ultimately asked not to bring her pup back.

We still met up for “play dates” but despite my pup being bigger, hers would constantly bully my pup and we had to separate them a few times. As hers got much bigger, the play dates stopped as I just didn’t trust it and we kept in touch through Facebook with pics etc.

Since then her dog has grown quite aggressive and is now in one-one training. She told me her dog was much better now so we met up this morning. I didn’t even recognise her dog walking towards me, it looked like a bloody military dog or a dog from obedience demonstration videos. Wow I thought ... I must get the trainers number! On meeting her dog showed absolutely zero interest in me or my dog. It just sat very quietly. Ears alert, eyes forward. Turns out the trainer is a “balanced” trainer who worked for the military as a dog handler. The dog has been trained on a slip lead. It seems to have had a total personality change ... in that it has NO personality now. I feel sorry for it. It’s like a robot.

The latest is that she’s taking up schutzhund training to exercise the dogs “natural instinct to protect”. I think she’s creating a time bomb personally.

AIBU to distance myself from her?

Best not to judge others.

There is no right or wrong.

Dogs have certain instincts that are stronger dependent on breed however every dog is different. Genes may be strong in one line but not so in another therefore what has been passed down each generation will make a difference.
Encouragement, reward, practice etc so many things can also make a difference.

Dogs are capable of some amazing things but they also have the potential to cause serious damage. It doesn't matter how much knowledge you have, how experienced a trainer you are etc.

With any dog there is no right or wrong answer. Trust your instincts

Slip leads are not cruel, not in the slightest, but yanking on a lead is negative reinforcement and studies have shown that it causes fear, anxiety, depression and aggression in dogs.
I do not know enough about shutzhund to comment on that specifically but I've owned a Doberman and personally believe that they are amazing dogs with excellent personality who are super intelligent and easily trainable, they absolutely need a job or some kind of ongoing training /sport etc to be at their happiest and best behaved (as does a husky etc). But, I don't agree with teaching any pet any kind of attack strategy, if this is what she has planned? Maybe she wants a guard dog?
Anyway, if I were you I'd distance myself, you obviously don't trust her and completely disagree with her choices so in my opinion after writing this post etc it would be very two faced to go back to being friends like nothing has happened. Obviously other people disagree and think you are being ridiculous but I agree that you shouldn't be friends with this lady.

I also firmly believe that dogs are like children and they don't all respond to the same methods in the same way!

I have a beagle so I work to his strengths which is scent and food. For example for recall we have a tug made out of real rabbit fur - he loves it because it smells of what he's bred to chase. That may not work for a different breed in which case you would maybe use a ball or a toy. Or if you have a breed with an exceptionally high prey drive you'd hire enclosed fields or go to the beach so your dog is set up for success as they can't run away.

You sound rather ignorant about dogs, OP.

I hope you have trained your husky cross well as they are also a working dog, and not particularly naturally compatible with being a pet.

I hope you have trained your husky cross well as they are also a working dog, and not particularly naturally compatible with being a pet.

So many people think they cab buy a working breed as a puppy and change its nature. 'Its not a working dog it's a pet'

They forget it's in their nature and are happiest when working. That working can take different forms.

I also firmly believe that dogs are like children and they don't all respond to the same methods in the same way!

Exactly. Every dog is different. Few of ours we sweethearts and positive reinforcement was not only good, but more importantly possible to do. Few were quite pigheaded, few were bit difficult but nothing bad and one had serious behavioural issues. Obviously that one was my personally 😂 He was 8 weeks old when we got him. A little tiny rescue. He was full of love, would defend us to death, loved play and cuddles. But! As soon as he only spotted other, especially smaller dogs, it was like a switch. Plus he was pigheaded and refused to do some things, like lie down, on principal I guess.
So he got different training. Tough one. It was either that or being put down because we couldn't risk this aggressive dog. We already paid for vet bills for 2 dogs. This training wouldn't work for the adult rescues though. If anything, the opposite!

So yes. Every dog requires different methods.

Did op ever come back?!

Anything with the ability to perceive a reinforcement, can be trained using a combination of positive reinforcement and negative punishment.

Dogs of all breeds.
Lions.
Tigers.
Dolphins.
Orcas.
Sealions.
Rats.
Birds.
Butterflies (yes, really, Ken Ramirez trained butterflies to fly to a location on cue, the cue was a piece of music and the reward was sugar syrup).
Gorillas
Cheetahs
Horses
Zebras

These are just the examples I've seen either first hand or videos of by the person who trained them, at conferences/seminars on animal behaviour/training.

So no, dogs do not need different methods - they need different application of the same basic science.

Within 'positive reinforcement training', there are myriad ways to apply those methods - from where you deliver the reward, from what the reward is, whether the reward is a primary reinforcer, secondary reinforcer, tertiary reinforcer, what it is you actually teach, whether you wait for the behaviour to naturally occur and capture it, or lure it, or shape it, how rapidly reinforcement occurs, how you fade out luring or rapid reinforcement and move to a variable schedule of reinforcement..

Positive reinforcement and negative punishment, works, no matter what dog you have, no matter how big he is or how sharp his teeth or how much of a working breed you think he is.... it works.

If you cannot work out how to apply it.. that isn't the fault of the science now is it?

Now you've saved me a job typing widdlindiddlin

I hope you have trained your husky cross well as they are also a working dog, and not particularly naturally compatible with being a pet.

Exactly this as well. Huskies generally don't do well as pets - they require far more exercise than most people can provide. In fact, I once read somewhere that owning huskies or malamutes is a lifestyle choice, which I think is pretty accurate.

I remember a woman on "It's Me or the Dog" who owned about 30 huskies and her life as dedicated to training and running them. She didn't work and that was the only reason they were calm, well-behaved and good pets.

My SIL's husky will eat her sofa if she doesn't get a good 5-8 miles of running a day! And that's running alongside a bike or similar, not just a plod around the block.

It's probably also worth mentioning just how many trainers with years of experience who previously swore by a balanced approach are slowly coming round to not using positive punishment as the best way - especially with complex dogs with aggression issues.

Also many institutions. The latest I heard about being the uk gun dog club - typically a area in which there are strong supporters of the use of 'corrections' - recently announced it now longer supported such methods.

A great write up on why on the link below - which also mentions the guide dog comparison mentioned up thread.

www.thegundogclub.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/The-Evidence-For-Positive-Reinforcement-Training-6.pdf

It's probably also worth mentioning just how many trainers with years of experience who previously swore by a balanced approach are slowly coming round to not using positive punishment as the best way - especially with complex dogs with aggression issues

It's also probably worth mentioning just how many trainers with years of experience who swore by a positive approach are slowly coming round to the balanced way.

Probably, imo, due to the lack of regulation and resultant extremes in both styles of training.

The complete and utter ignoring of poor behaviour by certain positive trainers for example, the view that crates are 'aversive', can't tell the dog no or give a verbal correction because that is abusive etc.

And the obvious abuse that is within some circles of balanced training.
Overly harsh corrections, mistimed corrections, misuse of things like prong and e collars, trying to control through threat and intimidation; I saw the last one in action on a walk just last week.
Young gsd being growled 'DOWWWN* at and poked and pushed.

Everything just seems to be extremes all the time.
There seems to be no real genuine 'balance' 🤷‍♀️

I am more than happy to be pointed at any frosted because, hand on heart, in academically studying Canine Behaviour I have not come across any that have gone the other way - from positive to balanced.

This may be an issue of selection - For the last few years I have tended to only read science papers and books with a science based approach because that's the only thing I have been able use as evidence in my degree etc. And anything science based would follow the current course of focussing on reinforcement based training.

Which is why I am (genuinly) open to being pointed at anything else.

Train8n g the dog to attack on command, also involves training the dog to not attack. Sometimes this is necessary. I once owned a German Shepard and had to train it to bark on command, and also to attack on command. He was extremely well behaved, and never jumped up at anyone, unlike some that wanted to treat their dogs like children

This was a really interesting thread to read. I think the OP didn’t come back as she didn’t get the responses she was expecting.