To distance myself from friend because of her dog training?

[VallyRey]

Friend and I bought puppies at the same time (so similar age). Not on purpose, we’d actually lost contact and happened to turn up to the same training course. Mine is a cross husky, hers is a Doberman. Very early on her dog showed dodgy behaviour, pinning other puppies to the ground and biting their necks. She was ultimately asked not to bring her pup back.

We still met up for “play dates” but despite my pup being bigger, hers would constantly bully my pup and we had to separate them a few times. As hers got much bigger, the play dates stopped as I just didn’t trust it and we kept in touch through Facebook with pics etc.

Since then her dog has grown quite aggressive and is now in one-one training. She told me her dog was much better now so we met up this morning. I didn’t even recognise her dog walking towards me, it looked like a bloody military dog or a dog from obedience demonstration videos. Wow I thought ... I must get the trainers number! On meeting her dog showed absolutely zero interest in me or my dog. It just sat very quietly. Ears alert, eyes forward. Turns out the trainer is a “balanced” trainer who worked for the military as a dog handler. The dog has been trained on a slip lead. It seems to have had a total personality change ... in that it has NO personality now. I feel sorry for it. It’s like a robot.

The latest is that she’s taking up schutzhund training to exercise the dogs “natural instinct to protect”. I think she’s creating a time bomb personally.

AIBU to distance myself from her?

*Punishment works by suppressing behaviour, not by addressing the root cause of that behaviour.

If that's true, does that mean stopping whenever a dog pulls on the leash is punishment, as it suppresses the behaviour?*

Yep :)

There are two types of behaviour alteration methods:

operant conditioning. This is where you pair the dog's behaviour with a result (good or bad) in the hope that the dog will CHOOSE to do more or less of the behaviour to get or avoid the result. This works well when the underlying emotion behing a behaviour is nothing negative (e.g. fear).

classical conditioning. This is where the dog is behaving as he does because of an underlying emotion. He does so automatically, e.g. barking at other dogs he is afraid of. You could stop him barking but this does not address the fear. You do better to address the fear and the behaviour is likely to go away as a side effect. This works well for negative underlying emotions.

They are not hard and fast rules. It's v hard to choose just one without the other, but can be used as a guide.

Whenever any trainer says they use positive only training this is just a short hand language that most people understand. It's not technically correct because:

• positive/negative in dog training terms means to add or subtract, not good or bad.
• as above; no one in the history of the world ever trained a dog using only reinforcement based methods because every time your dog expects a reward but doesn't get it = punishment

Also, ultimately, it's the dog that decides what is reinforcing and what is punishing. My dog likes fuss. Others dogs do not. For my dog, fuss is reinforcing. For another dog fuss would by punishing.

Make sense?

The dog clearly needed better training. You thought the dog was "dodgy'. You yourself say your friend loves the dog. Now the dog is behaving better.

By all means distance yourself from your friend but more for her sake.

Hmm! Seems 'punishment' is inevitable even when the 'stop' is paired with a treat or praise.

It's the wonderfully complex world of dog training that, at first seems so simple, but gets more complicated the more you learn

Yes, even when using treats your methods might be punishing. Think of it like your job. You get paid every month for doing your job, so your pay is reinforcing. It's the reason you keep doing it - because you want to keep getting paid. But being paid like this doesn't feel like a reward because it happens every time.

If, one month, you didn't get paid, how would that feel? It would feel frustrating and unfair - even if you didn't need the money. That's because you'd come to expect the pay. It would feel like a punishment. You'd also stop working pretty quickly - I suspect it would just take 2 or 3 missed pay days before you left and looked for another job.

If a dog gets a treat every single time he does something
a) he is much more likely to do it again in future
b) he will learn it quicker
c) he will expect the treat every time
d) he will find it stressful when he doesn't get a treat (it will feel punishing)
e) he will abandon trying (repeating the behaviour) quickly

Now think about gambling. When you buy a scratchcard you do not expect to get paid. You know there is a chance and you hope for it. When you don't win it doesn't feel like a punishment. You could buy 10, 20, 100 scratchcards and not win but would keep trying.

This is the same as a dog who sometimes gets treats and sometimes doesn't and who (critically) cannot predict when that will happen.

Dogs trained this way:

a) are also likely to repeat the behaviour in future
b) learn a bit more slowly
c) do not expect a treat every time
d) will find it less stresful when he doesn't get a treat
e) will not give up trying quickly

It comes back to finding the most effective AND least punishing approach for the dog. So the best method might be to:

• start off giving a treat every time so that the behaviour is learned quickly
• but then start to reduce how many times the dog gets a treat after just a few repetitions before the dog has had a chance to build up a strong link with treats every time
• slowly reduce them and make it harder for the dog to predict when he wil get them; this results in a more persistent behaviour that the dog won't give up easily

It's all about finding the most effective method that is as least stressful, punishing for the dog as possible.

Like widdlin explained. If you pair positive reinforcement with negative punishment you can avoid some of the pitfalls of them both.

I don't see how the dog was dangerous before? Unless you've missed something, why was the dog banned from classes for playfighting with other puppies? I don't think I've ever met a puppy that didn't roll around and pin other puppies, that's part of their learning in the litter?

Or was it more violent than that?

Sigh... Dogs aren't children you know...
Your friend should be commended. I wish my dog would behave!

Lead checks aren't punishment yes they are.

and the thin lead is the equivalent of house line

No it isn’t.

all good trainers advocate them

No they don’t.
they are no real threat to the dog Yes they are. You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.

Good on your friend OP.

Too many people treat dogs like children and put so much emotion into the training. It needs to be black and white.

There are far too many out of control and unruly dogs around whose wet flannel owners are scared to even shout ‘NO’ firmly, let alone give it a check with a slip lead. A dog that knows it’s boundaries and has confidence in its owner because the owner actually takes the lead/ charge so they don’t feel they have to is a happier dog IMO.

Thanks Lady that makes sense of why I have been doing what I have been doing. It just seemed odd, counter intuitive to call that punishment

Honeysuckle take a deep breath and try to work out why I am thanking one poster who has educated/corrected me and telling you to piss off and take your judgemetal bile with you!!!

In this cherrygrin the science totally disagrees with you.

Sounds like your friend had done well
She had a Doberman exhibiting aggression she’s worked hard, the dog now behaves itself and you are critical that the dog doesn’t seem happy 😆
It would be a darn sight less happy put to sleep or stuck in rescue due to aggression
You sound bitter ??

Yes it's abusive to stop walking and wait for your dog to catch on that it won't be going anywhere everytime it pulls.

Heard it all now. Jesus.

Maybe you have @motherheroic but you've not heard it here...

OP, WHY do you think the dog is 'unhappy'? You are placing human traits onto a dog. A dog that does what it is told to is not an unhappy dog. You seem to have a genuine problem with this woman and her dog. The dog was out of control. She got professional help and now the dog is very well trained. It is not going to suddenly go rogue and savage her or anyone else. Why would it do this? Why are you so convinced it is all going to go wrong? In all honesty, the dog is not the one with the problem.

@motherheroic.. who said that?

Have you by some chance, decided that 'punishment' = 'abuse'.

Some of us are using the scientific meaning of these words and some of us are making up total bollocks.

@damnthatanxiety a dog that behaves because he is fearful not to do so, and this dog has been trained using aversives, so will be fearful not to comply... will be a stressed unhappy dog.

The fact they appear quiet and appear to 'behave' does not = a happy dog, nor does it = a safe dog.

I don't think I've ever met a puppy that didn't roll around and pin other puppies, that's part of their learning in the litter?

Interesting.
My dog as a puppy, my DHs old dog as a puppy, my in laws two dogs as puppies and my SIL's three dogs as puppies never exhibited that behaviour.

I also find it a bit alarming that just because leash corrections have been used, the dog is 'quiet' and the trainer happens to be ex military the assumption appears to be that he must have been using aversive methods.

You don't actually know what methods were used aside from a leash correction.

The only point of relevance is that other trainers had refused to help the dog, it's behaviour was dangerous and left to develop would probably have resulted in it being PTS.

Your 'friend ' did the right thing. A dangerous dog puts others at risk. Yes, a jerk on the lead is a punishment, or if you like, a reminder to behave. Surely it's better to do that than letting your dog strain on the lead as it tries to get at other dogs? Not all dogs are the same. I am not sure if this dog would have responded to treat based training, the drive to attack sounds too strong.

I hit yanbu accidentally when scrolling, when indeed you are being unreasonable.

You are not this person's friend. You seem bitter and twisted, as you're so judgemental of everything that they do...

Deal with your own life and dog, maybe if you focus as much energy as you do criticising your "friend" with training it, then your own dog will give you that initial wow reaction that you had when you met your friends dog. Jealousy will get you nowhere in life...

Dobermans are highly intelligent working dogs you can't expect many of them to behave well if they're not kept busy or challenged. This is why so many terrier breeds behave badly as well, people think. they're just a cute pet but they're highly intelligent working breeds that go neurotic if not kept interested.

I've had working dogs including terriers and guard dogs my whole life and guard dogs especially should be highly trained. She's doing it right and it sounds like you don't understand dogs.

My working cocker spaniels are pets.

They are also worked. On walks they are worked. Trained to focus on me and chasing and finding a ball. Or the kids. We do it in the house.

All mine also had gun dog training. Dogs can be pets and work as well.

I think it’s fine to say you’re nervous of the dog why can’t you be friends and just not see each other without the dogs?! If you have no interest in that then you’re not really friends

Sound just like a debate about parenting really x either meet withoout the dogs or agree to disagree

To be fair she sounds like a very good owner who cares about the dog to make sure it receives the best help jt can to reduce or solve the problem I applaud her. You ABU