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Dead naming and the perversion/erasure of women's history

130 replies

CaptSkippy · 05/01/2020 18:12

For those who are no familiar with the term, "dead naming" refers to the use an old (usually first) name trans-people used to have before they transitioned and took on a new name. It will surprise no one that trans-women get most upset about this an cry bigotry if an old name is used or even alluded to.

But recently I have begun to see the consequences of the widely accepted taboo on these names in full effect, although it should surprise no one that this was going to happen and I think in fact many feminists have been warning us for years (if not decades).

I like to watch videos online about feminist debates and feminists lectures. Some Youtube channels are devoted solely to that purpose. A particular interest of mine is the topic of women's history and how it has been largely left out of the history books.

However, sometimes I will see a speaker or panelist and get a strong impression I am looking at a trans-woman. This is usually brought on by a very distinct masculine mannerism or shape of face.
Sometimes my suspiscions are confirmed when a speaker had access to certain male institutions that were untill recent decades off-limits to women, but are now known as the first women in such an institution (such as Jenner). However, often times Google will tell me nothing, due to the taboo on the subject. If it's not about sports or other male only fields, I can't find anything at all.

I often wonder if I am just paranoid and seeing trans-women where there are none. What galls me is that I can't tell. I can't research it. I can't know who were the first women doing exactly what, due to our exclusion from history books and now I also can't tell sometimes, because we have to accept supposedly former men as "female" pioneers.

Am I unreasonable to be suspicious of certain feminist-minded speakers or I am letting my paranoia getting the better of me?

OP posts:
CaptSkippy · 05/01/2020 20:59

@dinosaudinosaurparty

What do you mean by "your type"?

OP posts:
FrogsFrogs · 05/01/2020 21:06

Choma self ID gender is recorded in crime stats in multiple police forces including the met.

It makes it hard to say what is driving eg headlines last year shocked about the large increase in women being convicted of sex offences. Are more women committing see offences? Are victims of women becoming more confident about reporting? Are the authorities listening more to these victims? Or is it an inclusion of some male sex offenders in the female stats.

Surely you'd agree it's important to know what is driving this, in order to think about how to tackle it? I'd have thought so anyway.

(The large increase in women being convicted of rape in England/Wales seems to point in a certain direction for at least some of the reason).

Grumpydad1540 · 05/01/2020 21:16

@CaptSkippy I’m guessing the poster meant “your type”as in “people who are trying to stir up unnecessary hatred”... buts that’s just my guess

chomalungma · 05/01/2020 21:23

Choma self ID gender is recorded in crime stats in multiple police forces including the met.

The poster was referring to criminal records checks. Which are linked to previous names.

FrogsFrogs · 05/01/2020 21:25

What's your view on self ID for crime stats?

FrogsFrogs · 05/01/2020 21:26

I mean the informal self id that is already in place for many forces, not the proposed legislation.

Grumpydad1540 · 05/01/2020 21:32

@FrogsFrogs no one can ever answer that question because there is no stats to back it up...there is no stats that say women x%, self id woman 100-x%. Please stop trying to incite hatred

FrogsFrogs · 05/01/2020 21:36

What do you mean no one can answer that question. It is a fact that multiple police forces record self described gender and not sex for crime.

To question whether this might present issues with stats is 'stirring up hated'?

Crikey.

FrogsFrogs · 05/01/2020 21:38

What do you think we should do when considering how to tackle the issue of a large increase in women in England and Wales being convicted of rape?

Grumpydad1540 · 05/01/2020 21:41

Exactly as I said, and as you said yourself...police forces record woman/man...they don’t record “woman identifying as a man” or “says woman but in my opinion it’s a bloke”...exactly as they should...and you trying to bring crime stats into a debate about trans is typical of a certain subsection of Mumsnet stirring up hatred...luckily it’s a very small subsection and most people on here are reasonable human beings with reasonable views

FrogsFrogs · 05/01/2020 21:43

Huh?

Someone else raised the issue of stats.

You haven't answered the question. How should we approach the issue of the increasing number of women being convicted of rape? It's small number still, compared to men, but increasing. How should we go about considering why this might be and therefore how to mitigate it?

Grumpydad1540 · 05/01/2020 21:46

What do you think we should do when considering how to tackle the issue of a large increase in women in England and Wales being convicted of rape?

What we should always do as a society when there’s an increase in crime...look for ways to prevent this and protect the vulnerable...is there a sudden increase in the numbers of women being raped? Where are the statistics for this?

Grumpydad1540 · 05/01/2020 21:48

Convicted of*

Thelnebriati · 05/01/2020 21:54

*It's not in an online capacity that worries me the most, it's when it comes to criminal records checks

You don't think the Government have thought about that already?

You would think so but you would be wrong. The police had to look for a rapist and had no idea how to name or describe the suspect.
www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/15138710.wanted-police-hunting-on-the-run-rapist-living-man-woman/

I resent convicted rapists and sex offenders being able to change their legal gender and name.
I also resent the transing of women who were lesbians or non gender conforming. I don't understand how people can be more angry over dead naming than the problems this is causing.

FrogsFrogs · 05/01/2020 21:56

It was in the papers last year, with much hand wringing.

Women are being convicted of sex crimes more across the board. The number are still many many times lower than men, but that was a footnote in the reports I saw. There was much hand wringing.

What is the reason for the increase though? If it's because women are committing more sex crimes, if so that is a big change and it will be important to get to the bottom of why, to see if the trend can be stopped. If it's because some males who id as female are included, then there's not so much to worry about (other than the ongoing global issue of male violence).

Currently, there's no way of telling whether there is cause for concern or not.

The papers of course just said women doing it more, which gives ammo to the 'women are just as bad' people who like to try to stop discussions around male violence, and so that's not useful.

In England and Wales rape requires a penis, which is why that stat jumps out. I believe women can be convicted of joint enterprise, I mean women without penises. But it's rare. So the increase hints at maybe it's to do with a small number of self ID women having a large impact on the stats, and then this muddies the waters. And in the end, is there any point in collecting sex or gender info at all.

Grumpydad1540 · 05/01/2020 22:00

“It was in the papers” is about as useful a statistic as “it was on Mumsnet”...where’s the statistics, not the hatred?

Grumpydad1540 · 05/01/2020 22:02

But yes, I agree there was hand wringing...that’s the one true fact your last post was pretty clear about

dinosaurparty · 05/01/2020 22:03

Bingo @Grumpydad1540

FrogsFrogs · 05/01/2020 22:03

So you want me to go and Google for you before you will answer a quite valid question around whether self id will impact on the usefulness of crime stats.

I see.

The implication is I might be making it up, I think? Is that right?

Thelnebriati · 05/01/2020 22:05

The papers are reporting the MOJ figures which show a rise in the rate of women committing rape and sexual assault.

''Record numbers of women are being convicted of sex offences.
The number has doubled in two years with 120 women and girls found guilty of attacks including rape and sexual assault in 2016, according to the latest figures from the Ministry of Justice. That was up from 48 in 2006.''
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/more-women-convicted-of-sex-offences-bfdvv2w37

FrogsFrogs · 05/01/2020 22:08

Do you have a subscription

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/more-women-convicted-of-sex-offences-bfdvv2w37

There are multiple possibilities for the reason this has increased, or a combination.

The numbers are so low though, that including any males under self id (as we know has happened) has a large impact. Due to the fact that the overwhelming majority of sex offences are committed by men.

Can you genuinely see no value in knowing the sex of perpetrators (and victims)?

Grumpydad1540 · 05/01/2020 22:08

Self-identifying will make no difference to crime stats:..crimes will still be committed by people, be they men or women...and crime stats will make no difference to the way crimes are dealt with...I really can’t see what your obsession with crime stats has to do with a) the trans debate b) dead naming (which was the whole point of this vile hatred filled thread) or c) hand wringing

FrogsFrogs · 05/01/2020 22:09

'What we should always do as a society when there’s an increase in crime...look for ways to prevent this and protect the vulnerable...is there a sudden increase in the numbers of women being raped?'

You have misunderstood. Increase in numbers of female rapists.

WotchaTalkinBoutWillis · 05/01/2020 22:09

I often wonder if I am just paranoid and seeing trans-women where there are none. What galls me is that I can't tell.

Erm, yeah that's not healthy, you ask if you sound paranoid and yes you really do.
Maybe step away from the internet for a while and I mean that in the nicest possible way? As falling down youtube wormholes and constant "researching" won't exactly help with it.

FrogsFrogs · 05/01/2020 22:10

So you don't see any value in recording any kind of demographic info about perpetrators of crime or their victims?

Come off it Grin

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