Using E-cigarette in a meeting

[StrawberryShortbread2001]

I'm a support worker and work on a ward. E-cigs are allowed in the communal rooms (lounge, dining room) and the bedrooms. The only time they're not allowed is in ward round.

We were having a community meeting which we have every week. E-cigarettes are allowed to be used during the meeting. This was a special meeting about a certain issue so as well as the usual service users, nurses, support workers, occupational therapists and social worker - the consultant, head social worker, psychologist and hospital manager were there. One of the service users was engaging and putting a point across with a bit of back and forth. She was using her e-cig when not talking. Suddenly the hospital manager looked at her a bit horrified and said 'are you smoking?' She said 'No! I'm using a e-cigarette' The consultant then jumped in to say she shouldn't be using it. She was embarrassed and confused at being called out on it and stopped engaging in the meeting. At the end she spoke to the consultant to tell him they always used e-cigarettes in the merting and he told her she should have known not to use it and she needs to be more flexible in her thinking.

Am I right to think 1. If e-cigs weren't to be used it should have been announced at the beginning of the meeting and 2. She shouldn't have been called out in public like that

It caused the service user a lot of upset and has really wound me up!

he could have been a bit more tactful (gently & quietly whispering in their ear & saying something like - I am really sorry but I would rather you didn't smoke, thank you)

She wasn’t SMOKING, she was using an e cigarette. Legitimately.

@zingally - it's not a small space. You would have called someone out for following the agreed rules just because you personally disagree?
@PencilsInSpace - our policy is that e-cigs are allowed (small things that look like cigarettes and cause very little smoke/smell) - vapes are not (larger devices).

@PencilsInSpace I know that nicorette inhalators are something different altogether, seeing as I prescribe them for/administer them to patients every day. That's why is said "the inhalators used on wards are very different from e-cigs/vapes".

I am assuming - but I could be wrong - that the nicorette inhalators are what the OP is actually referring to, as these are what have been used on every ward I've worked on, in varying trusts. I think that the OP just used the incorrect terminology and that is what is confusing people.

it wasn't a professional it was a service user. The policy would have been decided by the professionals in consultation with the service users

Yes, I know. I’m just really surprised it was allowed. Regardless of self soothing, I think it’s not acceptable in a meeting, even if the meeting is about the service user. Presumably she has an advocate at the meeting who can speak for her if necessary.

@Kerning. @edsheeransgingerbeard- agree

Vaping a work meeting is just unprofessional and rude.

So what if a service user said they didn't want to sit in a meeting while e.cigs are being used?

Presumably that could and would be sorted out then and there, as soon as the issue arises. What would not be appropriate would be for someone in authority to pounce on someone in the middle of the meeting for doing something that had always previously been accepted.

@Rosehip10, it's not a work meeting. RTFT.

The OP didn't use incorrect terminology.
All the posters saying that the client was vaping are the incorrect ones.

Not really surprising as many of them also think that it was a staff member who was doing it.

Presumably that could and would be sorted out then and there, as soon as the issue arises.

How though? The OP says....

Service users often use e-cigarettes as a coping strategy/self soothe. It is difficult for many to speak in front of others especially the manager etc. Most service users don't engage but this one was trying and using her e-cigarette to manage her anxiety.

Nobody is vaping.

Yes, they are. Using an e-cig is vaping, they are the same thing. An e-cig is a small vaping device. You can get much larger vaping devices which also don't produce huge clouds, depending on what liquid you put in them and what power settings you use.

Some hospitals only let you use a disposable e-cig so they don't have to worry about battery recharging safety. I think that's where the confusion comes from.

YABVFU to use "called out".

WTF is wrong with "challenged"?

My dgm has an e-cig. It looks like cigarette. But she is still gets a big plume of vapour/smoke from it. Isn’t that a still vaping?

@katzenellenbogen - I agree with everything you say. If people open a thread why not actually read it and respond to what is asked. Some people are just wading in without having read or understood the OP.

All the posters saying that the client was vaping are the incorrect ones.

No they're not.

Although there is a big difference in the amount of vapor that comes from most e.cigs and most vape tanks.

Katzenellenbogen I'm just curious as to how you know for definite that she is or isn't using the incorrect terminology? Have you seen the exact device that she is referring to? Then how would you know if she is using the correct terminology or not? I assume she is using the incorrect terminology based off the fact that 1. All NHS trusts that I've worked in use an inhalator as NRT, alongside patches and gum (although that doesn't mean that all NHS trusts are the same of course) and 2. It is very easy to use the incorrect terminology as most people aren't fully aware of the correct terminology for the multitude of MRT devices that are put there, including myself. I assume she is using slightly incorrect terminology based off my own knowledge of what is generally used/allowed in hospitals but I could be wrong.

@mlou32 - sorry to be clear I mean actual e-cigarettes not the inhalators.

Worra, it would presumably depend on the circumstances, but essentially it would have to be negotiated in the same way as other issues in meetings of that type - e.g. if the meeting can be split into sections, then the bit that individual is involved in would be a non-vaping session, or the vaper could be asked to to outside to vape during the bits she is less concerned in.

Inhalator/inhale type - no battery, usually a nicorette one, suck on it, get nicotine hit

E cig/vape. Same thing, interchangeable words. Some are smaller and look like cigarette style, some are larger. Both need a battery of some sort whether disposable or a charging one. It's become common to refer to smaller ones as e cigs. They both heat up the liquid

There are two ways of vaping - direct to lung which uses more liquid, lower nicotine and produces more clouds. Mouth to lung which mimics how people smoke, often higher nicotine, usually less clouds and uses less liquid

I use an e cig, which I vape on and mouth to lung

Vaping is more the act, e cig is generally what you use, but I would say interchangeably "pass my e cig/vape"

Mlou32 I believe OP's referring to things like this - although TBH I didn't even realise they were still available: www.vipelectroniccigarette.co.uk/vape-pens/product/10-motives-v2-rechargeable-electronic-cigarette-regular

Only on mumsnet can people be so up in arms about a vape (which is totally legal) but not give a shit about people sniffing coke and smoking weed on a regular basis. It baffles me!

I think the consultant was out of line. If this is normal for all the service users and it makes them feel at ease with a meeting they should be allowed to do it.

@Rosehip10 - please read the op - it wasn't a work meeting!
@cherrysoup - it was a community meeting - all the service users were there - many were using e-cigs as normal. The occupational therapist brought it up with the consultant after the meeting.
@katzenellenbogen - thanks
@worra - it wouldn't have been easy to deal with but the group could have agreed the service user sitting in one part of the room and those using e-cigs over the other side, perhaps. Balancing everyones needs and rights is of course difficult at times.

e-cigs are generally treated the same as smoking and banned. - no they are not.

Everywhere I've worked they are, and I've checked in various pubs and restaurants and asked the staff to stop people vaping as the policy has always been the same as with smoking when I've asked them to check.

Strawberry, I'm an ex service user in such a unit. I can say for certain that I did not open up to support workers about everything, in fact I was extremely careful what I said as I wanted out ASAP.
I can also say that the support workers around at the change in smoking policy said exactly the same stuff you are currently saying whilst sat with 3 service users that I was aware of who all hated smoking and the lack of escape from it, but would never tell the staff that for fear of rocking the boat. They all confidently asserted that we were all smokers, I've never smoked and the group of friends I made who have all stayed in touch comprised of 1 smoker, 3 never smoked and 1 who was in there due to the after affects of nursing her dad with lung cancer and found being around smokers incredibly upsetting, once again, never shared with the support worker, the nurses, or the rest of the MDT supporting us, unless she was lying of course?

It may be the home of the service users who are currently addicted to nicotine, but it is also the home of those who aren't and therefore the use of such devices should be restricted to one lounge if you have more than one and removed from bedrooms if shared or both users have ticked that they are smokers upon admission, I also know very few non smokers who are happy to deal with the emissions of e-cigarettes 24/7 with no escape, and as you have admitted on several occasions that you don't think that the emissions are a problem, if you have shared that opinion in front of the service users, it will cause those with differing opinions a risk of declining their already fragile mental health to have to discuss it with you or similarly minded colleagues due to the risk of being dismissed or worse still being seen as difficult and bullied by those who like the policy.
This is why such blanket policies are dangerous, as if I was a service user at your unit I wouldn't even be able to attend meetings without an allergic reaction, never mind use the lounge or kitchen?The emissions from e-cigarettes give some people headaches or the smell, especially the flavoured cartridges can make some people feel sick.
Do you have shared spaces that are entirely non e-cigarette spaces so that users can choose whether to be around the emissions and when in their own home, or are all shared spaces allowed to be used by e-cigarette users at all times?
Have you provided opportunities for all service users to anonymously state their preferences without fear of repercussions via paper voting for example, as I was incredibly aware of the power imbalance in my unit, especially as a newcomer to an already established group and my own mental illness would have made it impossible to talk to a support worker about the issue until the decision was taken from us and I could breathe again.
I do not agree with the consultant humiliating the poor service user at all, but I am extremely concerned about your assertion that the policy will not be changed.
Once again, if I'm placed into your unit as a service user would I just be expected as a non smoker to just deal with it in my home without having to cause a further breakdown in my health by having to raise it with someone like you who cannot see the issue or having read this are you prepared to have real discussions to amend the policy so that there is equal access to all for both e-cigarette users and those of us who don't want to be in that environment, especially at meetings and when eating?
Sorry for the length once again.

@pencilsinspace - the ones we allow are rechargable (although we have a machine in the hospital selling one use ones which are allowed as well) but only the small cigarette tyoe. I know some would like to be able to use their vapes (larger devices) but I don't really know much about them.