To think London house prices are unjustifiably high

[Alanis126]

I was recently visiting London, where I once lived. It was a big big struggle financially and I wasn't sorry to leave. House prices have been stratospheric for 20 plus years and while there have been some small declines in recent years, I saw a central and fairly nice but ordinary sized flat which cost £1m. There are of course many properties costing way more. There are a couple of things in particular that I don't get. Forgetting the £1m central flats, even a very ordinary property in a quiet zone 5/6 area without much in the way of social amenities was £400k plus. While some people have family money, I think it is fair to say most people start their working lives with no or negative net worth. For many the early/mid twenties will be the lowest point if their income and when they most would like to or benefit from having access to social amenities. When even rent in a grotty house share is £800 plus bills, I don't see how it becomes feasible to live while you are trying to build a career. I know there are other cities but what if you have a job in an industry only existing in London? If houses are £2m or £3m then does it matter anymore what the price is? Could they be worth £5m, £10m,£150m? And while I accept people may still choose a London lifestyle, if someone has London equity and doesn't enjoy their job, is it only fear of being priced out for good that stops them relocating and having a total change of lifestyle?

London weighting doesn't go anywhere near covering the cost of living there so going somewhere else on non London wages should work out well.

It is yes, but property is only worth what people are willing to pay for it.

Lots of people I know prefer to live and work in London and the SE so therefore either rent or buy there or move further out - e.g. to home counties and commute in.

Or eventually they end up moving further afield but getting jobs there.

Most areas of London that were 'deprived' have undergone a makeover and places you wouldn't live in years ago are now either 'trendy' or offer fairly good value for money for a family home/flat.

antlady - a doer upper with loads of potential can still be expensive even if you buy at auction. Then you still have to get planning permission for if you want to add an extension. There's also the question of reasonable workmen and company to do the work - not cheap these days. Most of the houses in my street where I bought a house a few years ago (guarantor mortgage courtesy of parents) have been extended and had loft conversions so a lot have improved beyond recognition. Lots of single people in these houses I know estate agents and buyers are looking to leap on them and buy as soon as they sell up/die.

Lily - I work with someone who last year moved from SE London to Leeds - she simply couldn't afford her rent anymore on her 1 bedroom flat. She is now renting a 2 bedroom house in outskirts of Leeds and even with the salary drop still finds it much more affordable to live there rather than in SE London. She was lucky that the organisation where she works has Northern office as well as a London one and offered her the chance to transfer her job there. She'd never move back down south now.

Lifecraft - eating out in London 'can' be cheap. Totally depends where you want to eat out and how much you want to spend.

There's a bit of competition in some areas of London which are dead at weekends (think city/Farringdon etc) and I've eaten at fairly run of the mill restaurants there on deal site offers.

The expensive London restaurants will always do well as they know people want to eat there. The cheaper ones won't do as well as they're competing with much of the same. Takeaways generally do well as they're cheap and deliver. Cafes/sandwich bars - a local 'artisan' one tried to open in the area where I live which has a lot of restaurants and bars - they obviously thought another artisan cafe/sandwich bar near the plethora of estate agents and on the way to the stations would do well. It failed in a month or two. There are already too many similar establishments there. If it had been a Gail's Bakery on the other hand...

I do know of younger people who say "we couldn't possibly live there" Enfield and other places are seen as the ends of the earth despite good transport links and lots of local amenities.

In places like London housing density would need to significantly increase

What, even more houses? We already have too many HMOs in the capital. Are you proposing more of these? Or build upwards and have multiple high rises like the developed countries in Asia? What about infrastructure? When I lived in London my main issue was the poor quality of commute on the northern line. People rave about London’s fantastic transport system but the tube has for many years been hellish to travel on in rush hour because it wasn’t built to take the numbers of people that there are in the capital now.

I guess as fun as London can be, it’s vastly overpopulated and for many people that overcrowding is energy sapping and stressful.

What about hospitals, access to GPs and dentists? I think the answer might not be to increase the housing in London itself but consider a way to encourage major businesses and financial institutions to locate elsewhere. It seems absolutely nuts to have thousands and thousands of people coming in to what is effectively a tiny little middle of a circle every day, from its circumference. It goes against all common sense really with the numbers of people we’re talking about. London will become a city of skyscrapers with crowds like Tokyo, and then it will lose a lot of its charm and character.

The thing I get the least is the still quite run down looking areas where flats cost £400k. A friend of mine lives in Wimbledon near Haydons Road. To be honest the immediate local area and Colliers Wood, looks awful and depressing. Yes the millionaires row of Wimbledon Villlage and quite nice places near the station but if your quality of life is your immediate environment, or like me you're quite visual, it would drive me mad to live there. I accept others think differently and see "urban grit and excitement" where all i saw was traffic, aggression and dirt. Now I can kind of get why a flat near Tower Bridge would be £1m given the immediate amenities and options. But I cannot fathom what people actually pay for elsewhere. Im not saying they shouldn't, they can do what they want, but I just find it hard to relate to. I've a friend renting in expensive East Dulwich which seems a very nice area but hardly central and with some quite rough areas nearby. I have a friends in Glasgow, Liverpool and Belfast. Some of them earn way below the national average or are on fixed incomes, but their quality of life, city things and decent work in the week, lots of outdoor stuff in dramatic countryside at the weekends, seems way better than many in Greater London.

The problem with living further out and commuting in, Malylis, is that childcare becomes an issue once people start having families. If your commute becomes longer it means your child is in childcare for longer too. Your could choose a nursery close to work in the centre of London but that means dragging your child across London on a crowded commuter train/tube. I guess you’re lucky if you have family to care for the child but for many people once their very young baby is having to be dropped off at nursery at 7.30am and picked up after 6pm every day then a lot of people would consider having children while working in the capital pointless.

Yes, Alanis, I don’t think London is for introverted types who get their energy from relative peace and quiet! But there are some who enjoy the constant noise and hustle and bustle and even the smells. Personally I find the sheer volume of people squashed into such a small area terribly claustrophobic and stressful, but we’re not all the same, so I guess a lot of people get their energy from the buzz of all that.

"look awful and depressing" how patronising.

You sound rather idiotic in your last post

Many people I know who live here in outer London work in the City. A City starting salary for a school leaver could easily be £25k with the promise of much, much more within 5 years. These City wages have a hugely distorting effect on London house affordability and £500k isn't all much when you're on five figures with large annual bonuses. Obviously it sucks if you're a teacher or a nurse or a "normal" earner like me - but don't think for a minute that those expensive houses won't find a buyer.

There’s no point in questioning it if it doesn’t appeal to you. Some people love living in the city and generally there’s rougher areas nearby wherever you are. It’s good not everyone wants to do the same thing.

I think paying 1-2m for even a small flat in zones 1-2 is probably worth it for the convenience of living centrally. If I had the money I would definitely buy one. But paying similar prices for greater london doesn’t make sense when the commutes are longer than from Bucks / Cambridgeshire / Herts / Leicestershire etc.

Lots of people drop their kids at 7.30 and pick them up at 6 outside of London The idea that everyone lives 15 mins from work is massively outdated.

If you’re going to sniff at East Dulwich then you will need millions to upgrade higher than that.

What I'm getting from this is like many, many people I've known before, you want all that London has to offer, but aren't willing to compromise.

oliversmumsarmy is a landlord. They always tend to appear on these threads & blame everything but themselves & because they know "poor" people who can do it you can do it too

Am I a landlord?

News to me.

As for knowing “poor” people who can do it.

Well obviously a lot of people in London don’t have mega incomes otherwise there would be no nurses, TAs, cleaners and hospitality staff.
So they must be managing.

I really don’t get where you are coming from.

Are you saying that only rich people can survive in London

Also there are definitely flat shares for £500 per month.

There are a few for £350

There aren't many flat shares for 500 per month all bills included. There weren't 10 years ago when I did it.

There are flat shares for 500 ocm in places in z4 and outer but then you have to balance the cost of travel when renting.

alanis I completely agree on your idea of a large scale social housing build programme that’s means tested, however I do take issue at your comments about Collier’s Wood and east Dulwich?! (Sorry if that one wasn’t you). There’s nothing wrong with these areas, ED in particular is lovely. Collier’s Wood is just... normal? Anyway that’s beside the point...

I’ve made my feelings known about prices and would welcome a ‘correction’ to put it politely... despite the fact I’m buying a London flat myself. I’m not concerned about the impact on me, or any other owner occupiers - we’re already doing better than vast swathes of the population. I’m more worried about people less well off and lucky than I am having access to homes.

On the point about moving out of London, though, personally I couldn’t do it. I grew up in a suburban/semi rural market town, have lived in Leeds and Manchester, and London is honestly the only place I feel at home. I’d choose the poky one-bed I’m buying above a shop over a 2-bed somewhere regional any day. I’m lucky I’m in a position to make that choice.

@malylis

It seems like it has good transport links but in reality, each area of Enfield has one trainline into C London. If that's the one you rely on to gte to work during rush hour, you are buggered because any bus has to go all the way down the A10 to at least Seven Sisters before you can get links into C London.

You can get any train from any of the enfield over ground stations to seven sisters. Southgate is piccadilly line, Enfield Lock goes to Liverpool Street and Stratford, Enfield Chase probably is the slowest line in but goes to Moorgate and FP.

Oxford circus to Enfield town is about 35 mins.

Its well connected.

It has great links to central London

So you don't appear to know much about it?

Don't agree with everything Maylis says here but I think she's right in saying that there's an element of sacrifice/compromise involved in staying in the more affordable parts of London. There still are some relatively cheaper pockets of housing for those on decent salaries or with family help, obviously these usually aren't cool, edgy or glamorous and tend to be further out.
I know some people who could buy further out but choose to rent in zones 3 and below. Or choose to leave rather than have a longer commute. Different priorities for different people.
Not very achievable for a couple on average salaries who would like to start a family and wouldn't qualify for assistance though :(

Er we tried zone 6 in a grotty 2 bed flat with a baby. It was horrid! We definitley had to move out.