To ask why JSA is virtually half State Pension per week

[Oilnwater]

I'm probably clueless and totally missing something which is why I'm on here asking for help in understanding ......
Currently a single person aged over 25 would get £73.10 per week JSA. A single person basic pension is £129.20.
Why the huge disparity? Who comes up
With the figures? Is there a formula?
It just strikes me as odd that both single people would in theory be facing the same housing / petrol / fuel (the winter fuel allowance isn't much) food, normal everyday costs. Why the huge difference?

@G3m81 I don’t doubt what you are saying at all about people committing benefit fraud, it’s just that as a percentage of the total bill it doesn’t amount to much on paper. That doesn’t mean it’s a small figure in reality though.

When discussing any benefits, people seem to forget there’s a hell of a lot of people in between shiftless youths and sainted pensioners. Banging on about how £70 odd quid should be plenty for “young people” ignores the 30-50 year olds with mortgages, kids and responsibilities who just can’t make it stretch.

@Alsohuman 138 7 night summer holidays here for ~£150. HTH.

@AnotherEmma no disrespect but they are not going to stroll into citizens advice and confess to benefit fraud. I'm not saying everyone is at it because I know that's not true but the original question was why is it lower than the pension benefit and the answer is because it's supposed to be a stop gap not a long term solution.

"no disrespect but they are not going to stroll into citizens advice and confess to benefit fraud."

Well no, but we do get people who are a bit cagey when we ask various questions! And some people who have overpayments and fines and come to us for advice on that - but the vast majority of time that's due to genuine mistakes rather than intentional fraud.

The DWP have statistics on fraud which are very low (and that's the DWP), that's more important than my anecdata.

To qualify for a full state pension you need to have paid national insurance for 35 years.

Too qualify for contribution based JSA you need to have paid enough National Insurance in the previous 2 years.

A pension is a meant to fund you lifestyle in retirement.

JSA is a safety welfare payment to tide you over for a few weeks or months till you find work.

I'm astonished that anyone thinks they should be the same.

I think that young people paying into occupational schemes now will have means tested state pensions in 20-30 years.

The current state pension isn’t at all generous, but nobody believes it is sustainable in its current form (literally - the state pension age starts increasing for everyone this year)

However we still pay fuel benefit to all pensioners regardless of income. It just doesn’t makes sense except as an electoral bribe.

JSA should be set at the minimum wage or just very slightly below it.

What level do you think unemployment would reach if millions decided to give up work because they could get the same money for sitting at hone?

What level do you think taxes would have to rise to to fund this especially with millions dropping out the labour market?

Do you also realise this would in turn lead to all these people failing to qualify for their full state pension due to lack of ni contributions?

JSA should be set at the minimum wage or just very slightly below it

Ridiculous, working involves costs, such as travel, work clothes etc, so what you are basically saying is that people that don’t work should be better off than those that do.

Another one who finds the awful rates for carers allowance much more of a concern
For Carer Allowance to be increased, there would need to be a system in place to ensure that people are indeed providing the 35h of care they are supposed to. At the moment, the only requirement is for the person being cared for to be on DLA/PIP. The person in receipt of CA could just spend every day sitting on the sofa next to that person, and they would be getting it, that means the same than someone looking after a very disabled person that need clinical care that nurses would normally provide but can manage with training. It is not right that these two people should receive the same amount of CA.

Also, it is very wrong to say that benefit fraud is low. Or it is correct, but the number focused on FRAUD, ie. those who have been caught claiming fraudulently. Considering how under resourced the investigating team are and how hard to ease to prosecute, it is estimated that fraud accounts for a very small percentage of people receiving benefits they are not entitled to. The DWP issue a bulletin 6 months that estimate what they believe to be actual fraud and that is massive. CA is expected to be very high in terms of number of people claiming when they don't provide the care, but because the total amount is low, it is not a priority to investigate (and probably the harder to evidence anyway). It is easier to go after those to claim HB fraudulently as easier to prove and much higher cost recouped.

The JSA period could still counted when it comes to receiving the state pension.

Why not? It may be likely that the people who haven't worked as much as others will be the ones most in need of that pension.

ESA replaced incapacity benefit in 2008. There was only one group for Incapacity Benefit and it was not means tested

IB was only available to people who made sufficient NI contributions in the relevant period. Not everyone could get it, and people who were too ill to work had to claim Income Support instead.

I think - but not 100% certain - all new claimants now who are single can only apply for Universal Credit.

People who get the daily living component of PIP (or middle/higher rate care element of DLA) can't get UC, they have to claim the relevant legacy benefit. (Relevant case law here www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2018/1474.html ).

The basic amount of UC is a lot higher than Jsa i claim it so i should know. And that's not even the full amount i get i also get my rent and council tax paid seperate on top of that so how they expect people still under the old system to survive on jsa is barbaric its impossible to do

It really isn't, @LucaFritz, not unless you're including the housing element or something.

UC: (£317.82 x 12) = £3,813.84/365 = £10.45 per day

JSA: £73.10/7 = £10.44 per day

The 1p pd difference is due to rounding.

I cannot tell you how tired I get of explaining this to clients.

Personally I think another big issue today surrounds funeral costs. My mum has made her own provisions to provide. Whilst my dad (they're divorced) definately doesn't have a funeral plan in place. As I work full time and am lucky enough to be (just) above the threshold to claim benefit top ups. I'm well aware his funeral costs will no doubt fall to me to take out a loan to cover, as he does live off the basic state pension. But what can you do?

My friend and her brother gave their (horrendously abusive) father a DIY cremation. Her carpenter brother made the coffin out of bits of left over timber and drove to the morgue/undertaker with it on the roof of his van. They had a basic cremation, no service or anything, first thing in the morning, and that cost around £100. The various certificates cost around another £25.

I think they might have had to pay for his body to be moved to the crem, as I can't imagine you're allowed to move bodies around the country on the roof of a van, but if it had been allowed, they'd have done that!

@pauline you are funny

For a few weeks in the late 1970s, I was on the forerunner of JSA, unemployment benefit.

I got £25.40 a week. I also got housing benefit to cover the rent on my one-bed flat in London: £8 pw. My then boyfriend was working full time and only earned £40 pw.

It was plenty to live on then.

At the moment, the only requirement is for the person being cared for to be on DLA/PIP.

The person you are caring for has to be receiving middle or higher care rate (DLA) or high rate (PIP) so it has been demonstrated via the DLA/PIP claims process what care they need and what care is being provided to them already. You cannot earn over a certain amount so by default are working under a certain number of hours, if you're working at all, so are therefore available to provide the requisite number of caring hours. There is very little sofa sitting involved.

However we still pay fuel benefit to all pensioners regardless of income. It just doesn’t makes sense except as an electoral bribe

It makes complete sense. It would cost more to means test than it would save. It’s £200 a year.

Haven't read full thread yet and I'm sure it would of already been mentioned but why does a carer only get £66.15 per week? Absolutely shocking.

Yes @danni0509, Carers' Allowance is paid at a rate of £66.15 per week and you can only claim it once. I have two disabled children and also provide care to an elderly relative of DH's, it's one lot of £66.15 for all three.

Can I be controversial? I expect to be flamed for this.

There are many jobs in our society that EU members come and do for very little money - eg fruit and veg picking - because British people will not do them on the whole. At the school where DH is Head, which is in a very deprived area (some parts are in the bottom 1% of postcodes nationally), there are families where there are two ir more generations of worklessness (the phrase has been used in reports on the areas- it is an odd word I think). Yet there are local jobs that are badly paid. Should people on JSA not have to accept these jobs?

You could also ask why Carer's allowance is only £66.15 a week

Not exactly. Firstly the person being cared for needs to be on the higher rate of DLA/PIP. Secondly, you can only claim CA if you are working less than 16 hours a week (from memory).

So someone working full time and caring for someone "only" getting mid rate DLA/PIP can Fuck Right Off.

Although to be fair to the ever-gracious government, they haven't (yet) prohibited people claiming Carers Allowance for a relative. But heigh-ho; 2020 hasn't even started yet.

Should people on JSA not have to accept these jobs?

It wouldn't work , how would you force someone to take a job ?

It’s universal credit now right? Anyway it’s low to encourage people to get back to work most probably and it’s often temporary. Anyone who can’t work for genuine reasons shoulder receive than just job seekers anyway. Disability, carers, tax credits, income support. Even though I’m
Not sure how the new UC works.

State pension is not enough imo. You work and pay taxes all your life to get a rubbish state pension.

Anyone who can’t work for genuine reasons shoulder receive than just job seekers anyway

Only if you are assessed as not fit for work and, sadly, many people who are not actually fit for work get assessed as being fit.

Same for PIP, people in need of PIP get told they don't actually need it along with a list of reasons why. I know someone who was in receipt of it due to various health problems, both physical and mental. They were told if they didn't attend their assessment they would lose their entitlement to PIP then in the decision letter one of the reasons they were no longer allowed PIP is because their mobility problems and mental illness were not bad enough to prevent them attending the assessment so either way they were going to lose their claim. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I can give some examples.

Friend is a chef in a hotel restaurant. The restaurant needed kitchen workers- carrying supplies in, cleaning, prepping veg. They can not get people to do it and have brought Eastern Europeans across who are prepared to do it.

DH has cleaning jobs available at his school. No one applied. One of the long-term cleaners asked about her daughter -in her 30s - having one. The HR manager asked her to come in. She turned up and when she heard what the job and pay were she said it was too much work for not enough money. Her mum was embarrassed.

FIL advertised for a night-watchman at their church and community centre and food bank. No one applied. Eventually, a man who is a friend of someone who attends the church, was an architect in Iran and is a refugee/asylum seeker offered to do it for nothing- he is not allowed to work and earn until his status is sorted out. He takes great pride in doing it and does odd jobs while he is there. They find ways of 'paying' him.

Yet there are lots of unemployed people around still in the north-east.

There are many jobs in our society that EU members come and do for very little money - eg fruit and veg picking - because British people will not do them on the whole.

No, British people can generally not afford to do them. The EU members come on their own and live in utter shitholes the landowner puts on for them and send the money back home. It's not enough to live on if you have to provide for your family or even for yourself in the real world that's not a dilapidated caravan on a farm. The work is seasonal, too, not a reliable source of income.

Should people on JSA not have to accept these jobs?

Being unemployed is not a crime. A great many people have been found 'fit for work' when they are far from it and shifted onto JSA/UC. At the same time, you have now quite a few 'waspi's who had the pension age jumped on them at a stroke, they get made redundant and it's JSA/UC for them despite the fact that plenty of htem have been making NI contributions for decades. But you're suggested they be compelled to pick vegetables in their 60s because they've committed the crime of being unemployed?

The numbers of families with 100% multi-generational worklessness is vanishing small, and no justification for making unemployed akin to compulsory community service for criminals.