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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask why JSA is virtually half State Pension per week

203 replies

Oilnwater · 30/12/2019 22:57

I'm probably clueless and totally missing something which is why I'm on here asking for help in understanding ......
Currently a single person aged over 25 would get £73.10 per week JSA. A single person basic pension is £129.20.
Why the huge disparity? Who comes up
With the figures? Is there a formula?
It just strikes me as odd that both single people would in theory be facing the same housing / petrol / fuel (the winter fuel allowance isn't much) food, normal everyday costs. Why the huge difference?

OP posts:
HeIenaDove · 31/12/2019 00:42

"you are connected to someone of a specific age or age group, this is known as discrimination by association"

Which doesnt seem to have been a problem when it came to changing the rules on PC for mixed age couples

LuluJakey1 · 31/12/2019 00:43

They are allowances with different aims and different 'users' on the whole.
The old age pension was set up to provide old people with a living standard that would be above the poverty line after they retired so that they had some security and could sustain reasonable food, warmth, housing and the impact that has on health. It is a life-long benefit once people reach retirement age. It was intended to stop the state paying out lots of money to deal with the costs and impact of poverty in old age as well as providing security for the elderly. Originally, when it was introduced, it was non-contributary and a low rate but the idea emerged that people would pay a NI contribution all their working life to be entitled to a reasonable pension in old age.

Beveridge identified five things that after the Second World War that would have to be beaten: poverty, disease, ignorance, squalor, and idleness. His idea was these could be tackled with a state-run insurance system, and a minimum level of living standards would be established that were not extreme or punished the long-term sick who simply could not work.
So we all pay National Insurance and in return are entitled to a welfare state with social security, an NHS, free education for all children, council-built and run housing, and pensions for the elderly.

His idea was our NI contributions gave us access to government aid for the unemployed, ill, retired or widowed, and extra payments to support children (Family Allowance). There was no means testing- which there had been before the war.

The Post War Labour Government supported Beveridge's ideas (he was a Liberal) and implemented them. However, Beveridge expected people to still save money and do the best for themselves, very much in the thinking of the British liberal tradition. The individual would wish to be responsible for working and for supporting their family. He thought of it as a British characteristic. He didn't actually think it would cost the State money because of all of the NI that would come in from contributions from workers.

JSA, or whatever title it has had in the past, was never intended to be other than a short-term allowance to tide people through the time until they found another job. It was meant to cover the bare necessities so that it did not encourage people to stay on it. Over the years this allowance has had many forms and changes of rules. However, I still think that intention exists- that it should be very basic and not a place of any comfort. Successive governments never want to be accused by the electorate of encouraging anyone to be better off not working. That is the 'idleness' of his original 5 things that had to be tackled. It is a fear many people still have of a social security system.

I think that explains, as I understand it. In the late 40s, 50s, and 60s on the whole, the government and the electorate were all in favour of developing the system. By the late 70s when Thatcher came to power there was thinking that it cost the State too much money and that it needed reigning in. Hence raises to pension ages, higher NI contributions, selling off council housing, and welfare cuts.
This has been particularly the case since 2010 when the Cameron became PM. The Conservative party wish to reduce the role and responsibility of the State but we are fast returning to the position before the Beveridge Report where the rich are increasingly rich and the poor increasingly poor- and that has huge impact on every aspect of the lives of the poor- health, living standards, housing literacy, education, life-expectancy etc. Beveridge could not forsee the incredible developments in medical treatment that would take place and the high costs associated with that, nor the collapse of traditional heavy industry and manufacturing and the impact of that on employment.

bettybattenburg · 31/12/2019 00:44

Because pensioners have worked hard all their lives and deserve a good pension whereas JSA claimants are lazy and work shy - at least they are if you are Iain Duncan Smith.

brittabot · 31/12/2019 00:45

The system is a disgrace, but rather than people blaming each other we could look at global businesses not paying their taxes - would then mean we could fund both families and older people rather than have them presented as opposing drains on resources.

LucaFritz · 31/12/2019 00:46

The basic amount of UC is a lot higher than Jsa i claim it so i should know. And that's not even the full amount i get i also get my rent and council tax paid seperate on top of that so how they expect people still under the old system to survive on jsa is barbaric its impossible to do

Chocpear · 31/12/2019 00:47

@ProfessionalBoss, I am glad with what sounds a very tough time you are now managing without care currently. I appreciate the concern it may not always the the case if your condition deteriorates. Unfortunately, as you and your husband have savings it’s true that over a certain amount (over £16,000 you would get nothing, between £6000-£16,000 it is tapered) you would not be eligible for any care financed by the state. I think a lot of people don’t realise how little financial support for care there is available if you are not single and/or have savings. It’s v hard. Even those single and with few savings are having to contribute much more than pre 2010 due to local government cuts. It’s hard.

However, if you had recently stopped working or needed to shortly, as I said in the previous post you would be able to claim for contribution based ESA indefinitely regardless of your husband’s income and joint savings if placed in the ESA support group and for one year if placed in the limited capability for work related activity group after which your partner’s income and savings would be taken into account. They calculate if you are entitled to contribution based ESA on your I think previous 3 years NI contributions. I am not sure if a person stops working due to sickness and disability but only applies for the ESA three years on whether they would then not be eligible for the contributed based ESA. I hope you can manage as you are as long as possible, appreciate the worry long term.

FruitcakeOfHate · 31/12/2019 00:51

Which doesnt seem to have been a problem when it came to changing the rules on PC for mixed age couples

Yes, including if your younger spouse was one of those caught out by the sudden rise in pension age, with no time to prepare, voila!, UC for you both and that 62-year-old needs to be out meeting the conditions of the UC or it's yanked.

MockneyReject · 31/12/2019 00:51

My mum didn't work until she was 50. Then she retired at 60.
She has a large 2 bed council flat in a nice area, fully paid for by benefits and a state pension plus pension credit. Plus free bus pass and the winter fuel allowance, which funds her annual holiday abroad with her friends in similar positions.
She 'put in' less, annually, for those 10 years than she 'draws out' monthly, now. She's 75, so has been comfortably retired for much longer than she ever worked for.
She has never saved, nor invested.
If she were young, she'd be slated as a scrounger.

backburner · 31/12/2019 00:52

FruitcakeOfHate

why oh why do you think an experienced person in work should not be rewarded in their pay packet ?

Gingerkittykat's
Scotland are usually forward thinking.......but to be honest children should not have to take the duty as a carer it is completely wrong.

Pensioners ....some may not have worked but they will be getting a different payment .......

There are far too many people who would rather stay up late ranting about how hard done by they are than actually go to work. Those of you who are on this thread will know who you are immediately.
Also the silly people who think that they should be paid the same on day 1 as someone who is experienced lol the very silly entitled person who likes trying to take from another group of people because they think their need is greater because they have such a long tongue .

HeIenaDove · 31/12/2019 00:54

@FruitcakeOfHate

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/legal_money_matters/3479693-Changes-to-Pension-Credit

HeIenaDove · 31/12/2019 00:55

HelenaDove Thu 16-May-19 00:04:42
Paul Treloar
@PaulieTandoori
4m4 minutes ago

Paul Treloar Retweeted Paul Treloar

"Just advised on case, 64 year old man with recent diagnosis of dementia must complete online journal to claim Universal Credit cos wife can't work anymore due to illness herself and mixed age couples changes. Care to explain incentive for younger partner to work

Chocpear · 31/12/2019 00:57

@LucaFritz, thanks for sharing that. I agree JSA rate is extremely low. As said with JSA you still got housing benefit and some council tax support in addition to the JSA, but even then it’s still v low.

I don’t get UC so am only going on the info I have read on the gov.org website for UC amounts. It says the basic standard allowance before any additional amounts is £317.62 a month which works out weekly the same as JSA. In addition you then get the housing element and council tax support (as with JSA) then additional childcare amounts to replace tax credits and some additional elements if sick. I read it - and appreciate I may be reading it wrongly and you are on it so better informed - that the standard allowance before the additional elements works out same as the JSA amount?

FruitcakeOfHate · 31/12/2019 00:58

why oh why do you think an experienced person in work should not be rewarded in their pay packet ?

Because it's min wage job. You're talking about a min wage job. The min wage should be the same for anyone 18 or over. Why oh why do you assume a person up to the age of 25 doesn't have the same outgoings as someone else? Not everyone can live at home for free or low cost digs with Ma and Da. Plenty of people that age are married, have kids even. They're doing the same job for less money. What a load of outdated bullshit. 16-18 I can sort of see, but up to age 25, no matter if it's being a spark or wiping tables at Maccie D's? C'mon! What a load of outdated cobblers.

HeIenaDove · 31/12/2019 00:59

HelenaDove Sat 23-Feb-19 00:26:39
Paul Treloar
@PaulieTandoori**

Can honestly say, this has been one of busiest and most stressy weeks at work I can remember in long time. This mixed age couple change for Universal Credit causing chaos already and it hasn't even started.
6:43 PM - 21 Feb 2019

Paul Treloar
@PaulieTandoori**
15h15 hours ago

Working out how people will move from UC to PC, working out when people already on PC/HB will lose it and why, dealing with clients reaching 65 after May 15 and distressed to hear they're losing ££££'s. That kind of thing.
1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
Paul Treloar
@PaulieTandoori**
14h14 hours ago

For eg, under UC, couples are treated as permanently separated after 6 months. If mixed age couple split after 15 May, older partner can't claim UC due to age but can't claim PC as need to be separated for 12 months to no longer be treated as couple

Now as you are so interested in equality OP i take it you already knew the bit ive helpfully highlighted in bold? Xmas Hmm

FruitcakeOfHate · 31/12/2019 00:59

Exactly, Helena!

Chocpear · 31/12/2019 01:03

Thanks Helena for your info on changes to pension credit when people move on to UC. I had read some people will be getting less than the old system which sadly didn’t surprise me.

HeIenaDove · 31/12/2019 01:07

Gareth MorganJanuary 20, 2019 at 12:59
The state pension is used as income in the UC calculation. For very many people that will stop entitlement to UC and, amongst other things, any passported entitlements.

HeIenaDove · 31/12/2019 01:10

No worries Chocpear. I wonder how well homeless shelters are geared up for pensioners some of whom will have mobility problems.

Chocpear · 31/12/2019 01:15

@FruitCakeofHate, agree with you and thank you @LuluJakey1 for your comprehensive overview. I agree since the 80s and sped up since 2010 state support for the sick and out of work is decreasing and the trajectory is to bit by bit transition to the American model of smaller state spending. The poor suffer, the middle class will have to pay for private insurance to cover the risk of ill health or redundancy which usually works out more expensive than paying into a state system and the rich are fine financially whatever the system as they are rich.

PyongyangKipperbang · 31/12/2019 01:20

Not RTFT

Because a person on JSA will not vote Tory but a pensioner will.

HeIenaDove · 31/12/2019 01:25

DH is 70 in a couple of months. Never voted Tory in his life.

eveshopper · 31/12/2019 01:41

Because a person on JSA will not vote Tory but a pensioner will.

Confused
Purpletigers · 31/12/2019 01:41

JSA is short term to cover you until you find a job. It’s not supposed to be comfortable hence why it’s so low . Pensioners have presumably paid NI and tax for many years before retirement age . Those younger than 25 are expected to live in house shares or with family ?

ProfessionalBoss · 31/12/2019 01:43

@Chocpear thank you for your reply. Thankfully I am fit enough to manage work, in a position where I can work from home the majority of the time, and only visit the office for meetings etc. But your information may help other people realise what they are entitled to.

I definitely think owning your home and having savings is a great idea, but in a lot of ways, if your situation changes you can lose it all so quickly. We recently had to put a very well off elderly relative in a care home. His house had to be sold, and the proceeds from the sale, and his savings are being used to pay for his care. When those run out, his state pension will provide the same level of care, in the same home, for free.

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