To think we need to increase taxes on flights. If you fly more you pay more.

[ThereWillBeAdequateFood]

Just that really. I think something like 70% of all flights are taken by 30% of people.

I think we need to move to a system where the tax increases the more you fly. Something like (per year)

10% tax for the first 1000 miles
20% tax for the next 1000 miles
30% tax for the next 1000 miles
40% tax for the next 1000 miles (etc).

AIBU? Should we tax flights more?

Are all of the posters who are planning to decrease meat consumption also going to reduce their dairy?

@Songsofexperienceproblem is our effect on the environment is a very real problem not an ideology

That's precisely why it's so important to pick the right battles. There are other much bigger and worse factors for climate change out there than non business related flights.
There might come a time when we might have to stop flying but it would be more effective to focus on reining in big industry and stop deforestation of the Amazon.

Both the nilhist and optimist in me agree on climate v population changes: no matter how you see it, there's not much you can do.

The nilhist sees the total population growing (thanks to increased life expectancy). However that demographic bulge will literally die off in natural terms. If it accelerates climate change, then it also accelerates the factors that can kill us (extreme weather, less food, spread of disease, resource wars etc.). If we do go above 2oc warming, you are going to see a massive migration shift from equatorial countries that will make the 5 million from the Syrian war seen like pocket change.

The optimist in me notes the acceleration towards urbanisation and clean technology. As soon as families start growing up in a urban setting, children go from being a household asset to a household cost as they need more education to compete in the jobs market. Plus, when you have access to contraception, a variety of work and more opportunities to do things, it makes more sense to limit your family so you have time to do other things. In the long run, selfishness will triumph over everything else.

@Chattercino, I already have reduced meat by a third and halved dairy. My biggest struggle is cheese!

Are all of the posters who are planning to decrease meat consumption also going to reduce their dairy?

If I have to give up milk in my cuppa I would book myself into dignitas first.

Absolutely. I think everyone ought to get a ration (eg one flight a year). If you want to fly more than that you have to buy someone else’s ration. Would be a great way of redistributing money too.

What @paddingtonbearsmarmalade said. Interesting doc, thanks for link.

If flying is so bad for the environment, why are so many airports expanding & upgrading all over the world ?

Each year the number of flights are increasing

Social media is exposing people to more places that they wish to visit

If flying is so bad for the environment, why are so many airports expanding & upgrading all over the world

Because there’s money to be made. There’s loads of fast food shops too, doesn’t mean the food they sell is good for you.

The proposed scheme is overly complicated. You would have to have everyone submitting their flight logs at the end of the year and paying taxes.

If you want to add a tax that discourages flying, it will just have to be applied at the flight level.

But you do need to consider that not flying doesn’t mean people won’t travel and their alternate travel modes may be just as more polluting if not more so.

@CatintheFireplace good to know you would feel sorry for someone with a dying parent who couldn't afford to visit them because of a flight tax.

If you (or anyone else flying for this reason) agree this is more important than holidays or business meetings, how could you support a tax that affects bereaved relatives in the same way it affects holiday makers? If your close relative went from seemingly fine to nearly dead in a week, as my father did, would you take a flight to see them and say goodbye, attend the funeral, support the remaining parent? Of course I care about the environment, but can I not take my own decisions about how to balance that with caring about my own nearest and dearest? I'm talking about the loss of parents here - a major life event that only happens twice in a lifetime, not a fucking package deal to Ibiza

I have no children and otherwise do my bit for the environment. I live in a country where food is more seasonal so my food is not clocking up many air miles - in fact we grow plenty ourselves. I use park and ride when I (rarely) go into the city (rural and mobility impaired so I do have a car as I cannot walk 10km to the bus stop). I rarely fly for holidays. Most of my clothes and household linens are ancient Why should I be made to feel guilty for visiting family occasionally when there are people out there with 6 children and 3 Chelsea tractors who take 4 long haul holidays a year?

I'm finding the attitude to bereaved people pretty terrible on this thread.

@ViveLEntenteCordiale I'm sorry about your dad, I really am, and I'm not trying to say that you're a bad person or make you feel guilty. I just think that flying is a luxury with a high environmental cost (and not just a cost to the environment in the abstract, but to real people living in the environment) and should be taxed as such. At the moment if you want to visit a poorly relative you still have to pay air passenger duty, or fuel tax if you're driving, it's not that different. Again, I'm sorry about your dad.

*If you are able to afford to fly long hall you aren’t poor by global standards (or even by U.K. standards).

I’m kind of baffled by how people think they are poor unless their income is over 100K.*

And I'm equally as baffled at how people can think that a flight from London to Dublin that costs £20 is the preserve of the rich. Or Manchester to Caen for £200 in peak season

My point is, if you massively increase taxes on flights and this drive up the cost, all you do is suppress demand at the bottom end of demand. Those people whose demand is highly elastic will respond to price increases that way.

If you're a billionaire, or a millionaire or just a wealthy middle class person, and the taxes double the cost of your holiday flights, the difference between flights for £3,000 and £6,000 aren't going to stop you, your income can dispose of that.

But if you're actually struggling and you save every month to try and afford a sun holiday in France every July with £200 flights and £150 accommodation in a caravan, then yes, doubling the cost provably means you can't do that anymore.

The rich continue to consume, the poor don't. By raising taxes you've decreased CO2 output, but you've done if by punishing the poor for daring to want (even a cheaper version of) what the rich want. It's sanctimonious and arrogant in the extreme.

My point is rather than say 'oh this produces to much CO2 let's stop people doing it' why not invest in research to find ways of making it more CO2 efficient so that people can still travel but just by producing less CO2.

@CatintheFireplace and that's just part of the same attitude that says 'the poor are too numerous and should not therefore have the right to enjoy there privileges of the rich because of the environmental impact'.

You're not sorry about her dad. You just think that if she was richer it wouldn't be an issue that her dad died suddenly.

Shocking that the train is more expensive than flying! We get train now to Europe. It’s much pleasanter but costs more. We can afford to pay abit more but surely this should be subsided not flying. Everyone we know seems to think we mental not to fly btw.

@hiddenmnetter - you got me. It's nothing to do with the future of the planet, my real motivation is that I despise poor people

On a serious note, lesson learned: I should have bowed out of the argument when it started to get personal for someone. I'll do that now.

I have flown in 13 years, mainly due to a fear of flying and also because I find U.K. holidays to be perfectly good, the last 3 we have been on have been during the hot weather.

I try to do what I can. Yes I have children but when I had them there wasn’t as much awareness about it all, yes I do have a car which I use a lot but I live rurally and the nearest school is in the next village, I have to drop the children off on the way to my job in community nursing which requires me to have a car to cover such a large rural area, not sure what the answer is there but electric car would be no good as it wouldn’t cover the miles I do at the moment

That should say haven’t flown

Agreed , I know someone who took over 100 flights this year, many of them were from Australia to Europe and back. He was proud of it!

I don't think the taxes should be quite that harsh though. I fly to NZ annually to see family, and that's about 12,000 miles. I do think people flying weekly for business is ridiculous.

Maybe. But it does irk me that I'm expected wash out plastic pots and use shitty public transport but some people have 3+ children without a care.

Thingaling I like your idea!

I totally agree OP. We took one trip this year but it was long haul and I feel guilty about it. Even though we can't afford to be frequent flyers, I would like to pay for the harm that I cause, and I know that I don't. We did make an effort to avoid meat for some months in the run up. But we need to forget the morals I think because they don't help that much. In cold hard economic terms, externalities should be paid for via tax. It's a market failure that needs to be rectified.

For our next holiday (to France) we've decided to take the train rather than fly. Small steps.

I've found some great deals
Majorca £150 flight & hotel for a week
Various European cities £50 return flights
Various other countries from a big city to a smaller town £30 return flight

If I can find the deals & have the time & resources why shouldnt I fly multiple times ?

I've already booked one flight for summer 2020

I enjoy traveling