To consider that my dog will just never be dog friendly?

[SulSul]

I put two years of research into my chosen breed before I got her. Picked her up at 8 weeks old. After her injections she was put straight into puppy socialisation classes. First couple of times was fine but after a few weeks she started “playing” very tough. She targeted weaker/smaller dogs and would wrestle them to the ground and pin them by their necks until the other puppy squeaked and had to be dragged off every time. The group leader (who also happens to be a trainer specialising in aggression) said she wasn’t aggressive, it was just rough play. Before long she was the biggest puppy there and was getting more and more “violent” with the other pups and she was thrown out. She joined a group for adult dogs and did much better but if any dogs showed weakness or submissive behaviour she would go in for “the kill” no matter how big the other dog was.

The group is now closed for winter. In the past couple of months she has “attacked” a Doberman bitch, a husky bitch and a staffie bitch. All cases started off as play and turned nasty very quickly as soon as she managed to over power them. The most recent (staffie) was knocked over, grabbed around the face and shook. My dogs jaws had to be prized off the poor dog.

I don’t care what anyone says this is NOT play. She’s had behavioural training and is now awaiting a 1-1 consultation but I’m starting to consider that she’s just never going to be able to play with other dogs. She’s had tons of socialisation and also lives with another dog. This behaviour has been there from day one.

AIBU to give up and instead focus on training her to totally ignore other dogs?

The amount of times she has attacked other dogs and you keep putting her and those other dogs in the position for it to happen time and time again?

She is clearly a one dog, dog. Time to accept it and stop setting her up for failure.

I agree that training her to ignore other dogs is useful. More than just ignoring them, you would want her to be able to walk past them without reacting. I would be starting on a lead first.
But firstly. I would get a muzzle. Hopefully for short term while she’s training, but no more prising her jaw open !
Also, is there another game she likes off lead? Does she like a ball or a frisbee? Or can she swim? Something to keep her exercised but focused on you. Obviously you would need to drop the muzzle for this bit so not the first step.

This is very bad. Stop attempting to socialise her with other dogs. Walk her alone and muzzled. I hope she's ok with young children and her companion dog but please be very careful as she's so dominant. Have her sterilised and ask vet about hormone treatments.

I agree you should work with the trainer to ignore other dogs so she is not reactive on leash.

What type of dog is she?

All 3 of the dogs she’s attacked recently she’s known from being a baby and was always ok with them. Now all of a sudden she can’t be near them either. She plays lovely with strong male dogs and female dogs that don’t submit to her. Example is she won’t go near my friends female sausage dog as she lets her know instantly that she’ll tolerate no shit. My dog is 4 times bigger than this dog and she won’t go near her.

A few months ago she tried to “play” with a chihuahua who promptly handed her arse to her verbally and my dog ran off with her tail between her legs. So it’s not like she’s out to kill anything that moves ... just seems to be dogs that let her get away with it.

After the staffie incident she won’t be playing with anymore dogs. She’s 8 months old.

Is this the doberman that has been posted about before? It sounds familiar.
Either way, I would focus on ignoring other dogs yes. It makes sense to stop putting your dog in these situations she finds difficult to manage.

The problem sounds like the crappy trainer passing themselves off as an expert despite doing things that are red flags. Puppy socialisation classes shouldn’t involve unfamiliar young dogs being allowed to mix and play without very careful selection and monitoring - just being near other dogs counts as socialisation - precisely because rough play / snapping / pinning / biting can develop which is particularly harmful in the formative stages of development for some puppies. Any dogs that have previously pinned dogs etc should not be selected to physically mix with other dogs and certainly not smaller ones. As you saw, it resulted in repeat incidents occurring which were totally avoidable. It sounds like a poorly run class if that’s what happened. Not your fault or your dog’s.

Ours was a six week course of classes with 8 dogs per class and only two dogs at a time were allowed to meet. Then if play was going well, a third dog was introduced. This was kept for very short bursts of a few minutes at most and the dogs’ body language was carefully watched. Mismatched dogs were separated in seconds. All dogs were on leads so they could be removed quickly. This course was run by a certified animal behaviourist with ICAN and IBTC qualifications and MAPDT registration and she was clear about her view that puppy socialisation classes (often run by vets and pet stores) which just put lots of dogs together like a free for all are the absolute worst way to socialise dogs.

I’m disgusted that the trainer allowed smaller weaker dogs to be pinned until they squeaked because this is a really harmful experience to have for a puppy and is totally avoidable.

I’d just make sure your next trainer is a CCAB and registered as a clinical animal behaviourist as you don’t want another ‘expert’ sweeping in with crap advice and anyone can call themselves a dog trained because it’s entirely unregulated.

Stop socializing her - she clearly has no skills. And by the sound of it never had any. Some puppies in a litter can be stronger and turn into little bullies. Socializing with a bunch of other puppies did just reinforce the behaviour. She should have had a mix of different ages to socialize with. That way she would have learned the "rules"
First question is what breed?
Second where does she come from?

Stop putting other dogs at risk ffs!
The chihuahua and the sausage dog are a moment of clarity away from serious harm. They might hand her arse to her now but as you’ve said she’s much bigger than them and one day she’ll clock that and they simply won’t survive.

Keep her on lead n bloody muzzled while working with a behaviourist. Some dogs aren’t dog friendly by their nature but you don’t allow them to harm others pets.

As the owner of a small dog this post makes my blood run cold. What would have happened to the chihuahua if your dog had decided to “play” roughly with it? Small dogs can have their necks broken by big dogs, you’ve just been lucky so far that your dog has only gone for robust dogs.

Your dog needs to be on a short lead by your side, not allowed to run free with other dogs.

What breed is this dog? You mentioned you waited a long time for the breed so you must have really wanted it.

Even if you train her to ignore other dogs, what will you do if a dog off the lead approaches her? I see someone in the park who has a pit ball she walks on the lead muzzled and she has a huge amount of stress controlling the dog when it gets approached. Getting dragged everywhere. To me that takes all the enjoyment out of dog walking for all parties involved. She also has to have 2 different stair gates before her front door because once the dog ran out and attacked another dog (75 stitches on an 11 year old submissive female). They also have to have barbed wire around their back wall because she got into a neighbours garden to try and get a terrier.. the neighbour saved his dogs life by attacking her with a shovel... to me this sounds like a lots of stress and they have spent god knows how much on training

I'd get this shifted over to The Doghouse rather than leave it in AIBU. You've already had a few dodgy answers here that completely counter the science on canine behaviour.

However, a boisterous dogs with no manners eventually becoming an aggressive one because of the stress that dog-dog interactions cause is a well worn path. Your instincts are absolutely right not to tread it.

Find yourself a well qualified behaviourist (APBC or similar) to work with you but in essence:

• stop having your dog interact with others because it just perpetuates the problem
• look at ways to keep your dog focussed on you when passing other dogs (treats and training to heel)
• no off lead around other dogs; long training/lunge leads can help in wide open areas and I would avoid other dogs all together in close quarters

The 'ideal' would be a large open field in which another dog is the other side and you can practise walking yours, keeping her focus on you while she is aware but unable to reach the other dog.

Over time and with maturity you may find she settles to become ok around other dogs again as she matures, steadies and gets different experiences that ignoring them and focussing on you is be far the most rewarding thing to do.

But, for her sake, absolutely stop any chance of her having or practising negative interactions with other dogs at such a young and impressionable age.

@WaggleWiggle speaks a lot of sense about dog classes and your rather feckless trainer

At 8 months old she's still very young and can learn masses from correct training. Get a consultation with a behavioural specialist - there's a guy called Nick Jones who is UK based and travels all over and he is genuinely brilliant at training owners and dogs. He also testifies as an expert witness in courts frequently and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend him.

I agree with others, though, that you need to take measures to prevent her being able to repeat the same behaviours. So keeping her on a lead in public, keeping her focussed on you and your commands and not letting her socialise with other dogs til you've done more work with her is key.

It is so hard when it's not something you've done or encouraged - one of ours when she came to us (at 12 months old) was an absolute demon with other dogs and it took such a huge amount of training from outside experts to get her sorted. She's 10 now and a total dream, so don't despair, just keep your dog safe.

I read somewhere that some dogs can’t cope with the pressure of having to be dominant. So the fact that it is ok around dogs that won’t submit fits here.

Even so, it will only take for that sausage dog to feel unwell or have an off day for it to submit slightly - and then what will happen?!

I would be muzzling until a very good, 1:1 behaviouralist told me it was safe not to. (And you have to be prepared for that time to never come.)

I think the mistake here was that your "trainer" thought it acceptable socialisation to just chuck a bunch of strange puppies together in a room and let them play.

"Puppy parties" are such a horrible idea for socialising - they're overwhelming and loud and can be really frightening for young dogs who have no experience of other animals apart from their litter mates yet.

For now, you need to keep your dog on a lead and muzzle her. Other dogs shouldn't be subject to biting and being pinned down just because your dog is not under control. If an owner gets in the way of breaking up a fight and gets bitten then you're in real trouble and could potentially lose her.

I would get the help of an accredited behaviourist - someone who has qualifications and who can work with your dog one on one.

For now your dog needs to be totally under your control and kept on lead at all times. You can't risk an accident and her potentially putting another dog in the vets or worse.

There are some truly abysmal 'trainers' out there including the local one who also does dog-walking and brags about his 'qualifications' in dog psychology. Took my new rescue out "don't let her off the lead. She doesn't know the locality". Lunkhead let her loose. 4 hours of lovely neighbours helping comb the woods to find her. Yes, got her back unharmed, thanks, but am furious all over again just thinking about it. Even a novice dog owner wouldn't be so stupid.

Just to add she’s not been near the sausage dog since she started getting so bad and don’t be going near her again. The chihuahua walked up to her. My dog was on lead. I don’t take her out and chuck her amongst little dogs to see what happens.

What type of dog is she? I am asking as some breeds such as "prey" driven dogs do behave like this.
Sounds like trainer is completely crap and has "allowed "her to get away with this behaviour, and she isn't as socialized as you think. She needs some manners, and appears that some other dogs are not letting her get away with it, but bullying weaker dogs is not on. I hope the behaviourist you are using uses positive reinforcement methods.

8 months is still young, so there is time for her to be trained. All the dogs I have had have gone through arsehole times around this age, especially my youngest and smallest rescue who had no socialisation skills at all before we got him at 9mths, and we had to teach him not to react to other dogs. Made him sit, and focus his attention on me, whilst another dog was passing and reward him if he didn't react, and take him away if he did. He lives happily in a multi dog house.
However your behaviourist should give you advice on this rather than me,as it isn't quite as simple as I stated and takes a LOT of work and patience. Muzzle and walk her alone for just now, and do basic obedience with her so she is always listening to you.
Good videos to get you started such as Zak George or Kikopup on YouTube, before you get your behaviourist, and keep her away from other dogs, but don't tense up when you see one, just calmly walk her away with a "lets go ".She will feel your tension and become more reactive.

Your dog does not need interaction with other dogs, and by forcing the issue you are putting your dogs and others at risk as well as risking a criminal conviction for yourself.

Walk your dog on a lead and ensure that when you encounter other dogs when walking that you ensure your dog cannot attack them. Problem solved.

You will always need to be careful with your dog around other dogs. That’s just the way it is.

And completely agree with @adaline. Poor dog was probably overwhelmed. She should have been introduced to other dogs slowly. So many places do these puppy parties and it's just silly.

Why are you not answering what breed she is?

I would expect by working one on one with an experienced trainer breed specific to your dog you could see some improvements in their behaviour. The breed specific part is important imo as different breeds have different play styles and body language. Unfortunately because she's been allowed to display dominant behaviours towards other dogs during that crucial socialisation window, she's probably never going to be 100% reliable around other dogs.

Just to add, if your dog got hold of mine as you describe, I would report your dog to the police.