To consider that my dog will just never be dog friendly?

[SulSul]

I put two years of research into my chosen breed before I got her. Picked her up at 8 weeks old. After her injections she was put straight into puppy socialisation classes. First couple of times was fine but after a few weeks she started “playing” very tough. She targeted weaker/smaller dogs and would wrestle them to the ground and pin them by their necks until the other puppy squeaked and had to be dragged off every time. The group leader (who also happens to be a trainer specialising in aggression) said she wasn’t aggressive, it was just rough play. Before long she was the biggest puppy there and was getting more and more “violent” with the other pups and she was thrown out. She joined a group for adult dogs and did much better but if any dogs showed weakness or submissive behaviour she would go in for “the kill” no matter how big the other dog was.

The group is now closed for winter. In the past couple of months she has “attacked” a Doberman bitch, a husky bitch and a staffie bitch. All cases started off as play and turned nasty very quickly as soon as she managed to over power them. The most recent (staffie) was knocked over, grabbed around the face and shook. My dogs jaws had to be prized off the poor dog.

I don’t care what anyone says this is NOT play. She’s had behavioural training and is now awaiting a 1-1 consultation but I’m starting to consider that she’s just never going to be able to play with other dogs. She’s had tons of socialisation and also lives with another dog. This behaviour has been there from day one.

AIBU to give up and instead focus on training her to totally ignore other dogs?

We had a fear aggressive lab that was pinned down and attacked violently by 2 big dogs when she was a puppy. She never got over it despite lots of different attempts at training from classes to 1:1 to socialization groups. She was ALWAYS walked on a short lead and was fine if other dogs ignored her (and she always ignored them - she never reacted first ) but if dogs ran at her she would go for them. Fairly quickly we gave up walking her where other dogs ran free, and if we had to she was muzzled. We ended up moving to somewhere she had free run of a large field that she could be out in all day if needed. It was so stressful and ruined dog ownership for me. So although we had a similar problem to yours it was actually caused by behaviours of other dogs as yours is showing so be aware of the knock on effects on other people/dogs... we couldn't train out of it and ended up having to modify our lives for 13 years because of it. I realize not everyone can move to a field but there are people that hire out enclosed fields for safe dog walking. Otherwise you may well be stuck with walking her muzzled on a lead at all times. Its not what you want but your responsibility is to keep other dogs safe from your dog. I do sympathize massively though because it sucks and you sound like you are aware of the huge problem you face.

These puppy parties? Do owners stay?

If not, what were you thinking?

If so why did you not drag her off when she pinned a smaller puppy to the ground?

@SulSul what breed is the dog? You seem reluctant to answer.

Sorry but she sounds like a very dangerous dog. Any dog that attacks other dogs potentially puts their owners at risk too as they may get hurt if they try to intervene.

My dog was recently badly attacked by a neighbour’s dog. I reported it to the police and it has been seized. I personally think that unless you are in a position to give this dog sufficient exercise without it harming other dogs then it must be having a very difficult frustrating life and should be enthanised.

Why aren’t you answering the questions about which breed this dog is?

Dominance in dogs is a myth. Your dog is a bully and needs to be trained to ignore other dogs.

I would follow whatever advice comes from the 1-2-1 consultation. It may be that with training she can be more sociable, or she may never be reliable around other dogs (on lead or off lead) which might lead to you having to take further precautions when walking her.

I have two dogs, Nova is 5 and a mixed breed rescue, she is too sociable with other dogs, leading her to be too boisterous (never aggressive) because she gets so excited. To cope, we never let her off lead around unknown dogs although she is allowed to say hello as she is very gentle on lead.

Luna is 2 and a cockapoo, she's fine with dogs off lead but could be a bit snappy if they get too sniffy with her on lead. We got a trainer in to help us deal with this in case we ever had an off lead dog come up to us and taught her a solid focus on us, which has been 100% successful since.

For record my pair play roughly with each other at home but I have a solid "enough" command when I want them to stop. You can definitely tell the difference between rough play and aggression as they have completely different body language. Play should be free flowing and evenly matched between the two dogs, even if one is larger than the other, for example my larger dog will often bring herself down to the little dogs level when playing rather than tower over her all the time.

Poor wee staffy, you’re lucky the owners didn’t call the police.
These puppy groups are run by idiots with little or no proper knowledge of dog behaviour.
Research and get a qualified experienced force free behaviourist, in the meantime buy a baskerville muzzle and keep her on lead and get her spayed if not already.

@SulSul, if you researched the breed, why can't you tell us what kind of dog it is? Several people have asked including myself? If she is a "prey" driven dog , or some of the "bully" type breeds, she may not ever interact well with other dogs.
Yes, I know some bully type dogs do fine with other dogs( had one, but equally had another and a lurcher that couldn't be near others, both rescues though). Depends on temperament.

OP I sympathise we are very experienced dog owners and we have always had very large breed dogs
We had a puppy 8 weeks old . Took her to Puppy classes - Same trainer as we have always used
She was an aggressive little bitch from the get go
Very territorial with toys couldn’t do the free play at the end as she played very rough and aggressively
If she was a human she would have had an ABSO slapped on her .

We walked her on her own lead training and accepted that she wasn’t dog friendly and wouldn’t be allowed off the lead ever .
She was ok as long as dogs didn’t come up to her or try to bully her .
If they did she would react badly
We always muzzled her when out walking as we knew as the bigger dog although she wouldn’t start a fight because of her size and breed she would most definitely finish the fight
She was actually quite disinterested in dogs and wouldn’t drag or pull us if she saw them . She just didn’t like them approaching her .

Surprisingly though she had no problem with our other boy dog of the same breed mainly because he was a wuss and didn’t challenge her in any way .Even though he was much bigger than her he was quite submissive to her
So no real advice but some dogs in my opinion can’t be let off the lead and you just have to get them as good as you can

As a complete aside, I removed one of my dogs from a dog training class immediately for using an adversive on another dog ( not mine), because it was barking excitedly. Some absolutely shit trainers out there. Trained him myself and he's a great dog, but then he's a big soppy bugger

My rescue Staffie cross is nice as anything with kids, loves them, but doesn't like most dogs.

Exercise her without allowing her to be loose. She sounds like one of mine who changed when attacked by the neighbour’s dog. I’ve been through 4 trainers, the last of which, a specialist in the breed, told me he’ll never be safe. Over many years, this has proved true. Luckily, mine is obsessed with retrieving so I can occupy him when out and I keep close to a gate so I can escape/keep him and other dogs safe.

Even muzzling isn’t very helpful, mine attacked a dog with his muzzle on, got her down.

The difficulty I find is other owners being utterly ignorant and allowing their untrained dogs to bounce over then I get bollocked for having an under control well behaved dog who wouldn’t dream of approaching another dog! Drives me nuts. Mine doesn’t go up to other dogs, just defends if they jump on him.

My dog is 9, we got him when he was 7 months old from a pound. He'd been put in at 8 weeks old and had zero contact with other dogs. He hates other dogs and when in the garden will run to the fence, bark and snarl at them. Same when out walking (he's always on a lead but will try his hardest to run for other dogs)

No amount of training will help him. But with people, he's a different dog. He's the most sweetest, kindest and gentle dog I've ever met. He's a staffy, and I've zero issues with my 10 month old around him, or anyone else. He's never shown one ounce of aggression to any person in his life - quite the opposite, he's always after cuddles and kisses and is my perfect puppy.

What I'm trying to say is, it's not the end of the world if your dog doesn't like other dogs, as it can be worked around, and they have so much love to give in so many other ways.

Even if your dog isn’t hurting these other dogs it’s an experience you should be putting other dogs in. My dog is terrified of certain dogs as a result of dogs like yours.

However, your dog is young and her reactions to other dogs will reduce in intensity. You need to keep her away from other dogs, for now at least. Hopefully she will settle with age and can be socialised again.

Just adding to the call as to what breed this dog is!

Breeds have been developed over decades with particular purpose in mind, so it does matter.

Muzzle it!

Exactly what training are you giving your dog?

If I were you, I'd urgently be teaching a:

• leave it command - ie ignore what it is looking at, running after, playing with and return to heel
• drop it command - ie instantly release what it has in its mouth

Neither of those are negotiable, particularly as your dog is showing antisocial tendencies. If you don't want someone complaining to authorities and your dog being declared dangerous or put down, then you owe it to your dog to not put it in the position in the first place and then to train it to be obedient and leave and drop items.

How does the dog play with you? I'm not sure if you would be picking up inappropriate body language as you're letting your dog have a go at other dogs, and that doesn't happen without warning. My dog would never have a chance to have a go as it would be called back to heel as soon as it displayed inappropriate body language or behaviour. It's not the job of the other dog to teach mine manners - that's my job.

What basic commands has your dog learned? Come, sit, stay, drop and heel? How reliable is it with these commands? At 8 months it should be pretty good - not off lead but reliable in low stimulation situations.

How often do you train? What do you train?

You need to be very very careful about what kind of behavioural advice you follow for this issue. Please ensure that any behaviourist that you engage with is qualified and registered with the APBC (Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors) and/or the ABTC (Animal Behaviour & Training Council) - you can ask your vet for a referral. I do this regularly and refer clients to competent, reputable, qualified behaviourists.

I cannot stress how important this is. Any Tom Dick or Harry can set themselves up as a 'dog trainer' with zero/shit qualifications, and they can and do cause more harm than good.

If you don't go through your vet, I have recommended Dog Communication, based in Surrey, on here before - I'm not sure if you are the same poster with the female Doberman puppy. In any case, I would highly recommend Laura and Penel, they are both highly qualified and extremely experienced in working with reactive, anxious or aggressive dogs, and only use the most up to date, safe, positive methods. Even if you are not local to that area I would consider travelling to see them if at all possible:

dogcommunication.co.uk/

All a bit moot as you (apparently) refuse to state the breed OP, dogs gave different training needs. You make it sound like you have no experience of the breed or dogs, but feel your research before buying a puppy qualified you and now you're in over your head. Clearly it is a large dog if it was the biggest puppy in the room or was older than stated when it came to you.

The dog sounds like a ticking time bomb , Iwould do research to find a dog behaviourist with decent reviews and qualifications and take it to the vet to be checked and seek advice.

You

It needs to be put to sleep. Im surprised you were allowed back at all. Why do you want this dog??

We have a very dog-unfriendly dog. He has to be kept on a lead, and we have had to warn other dog owners to call their dogs away when they come over off the lead. Even at the grand old age of 13, he’s a Mande to other dogs, despite being deaf, and wobbly on his feet.

A Mande? What the hell is that? It should say a menace.

“ It needs to be put to sleep. Im surprised you were allowed back at all. Why do you want this dog??”

Behave.

It just needs to be kept on a league and stopped from interacting with other dogs.

Dogs don’t need “doggy time”. This is a human affectation.

It always surprises and disappoints how many people are willing to pass a death sentence on an animal they have never seen for themselves and based on just one persons few words.