To think this is unreasonable and this judge knowingly scentenced this man to death

[Sootyandsweep2019]

Just read a heartbreaking story in the paper about an 87 year old man, who given a 27 month prison sentence after he killed someone in a car accident. The judge was warned at the time by the man's doctors that this was highly likely to lead to his death; but went ahead and did it anyway. As predicted, he died nine days later. This was not murder, this was not malicious; it was a complete, tragic accident.

By all means ban him from driving if he was a danger, look at tightening the driving regulations around older drivers.

But our obsession with "making people pay," for genuine accidents has led to this utter tragedy .

The poor man must have been terrified. I really think this particular judge/ case needs urgent investigation; and we need a wider look at whether prison is always an appropriate response to car accident s like this.

Sadly I don't expect the judge/ CPS/ solicitors etc. Feel guilty at all.

Just to add, I’m from the US originally, where this sort of driver error is much more common because we drive automatic cars.

www.mercurynews.com/2015/09/23/livermore-gym-crash-pedal-error-dangerous-phenomenon-among-elderly-drivers

Interesting stats: A 2012 federal study found that almost two-thirds of all pedal errors involve young and elderly women — the highest percentage being women 75 or older — parking at slow speeds. In May, the federal traffic safety agency, citing data from 2000 to 2010, said those types of crashes occur 16,000 times a year in the United States, or 44 incidents a day

Notice in the article they do not talk about jailing elderly drivers for this! The elderly woman in question did not even get jailed or cited though she killed one woman and injured six others. They instead talk about prevention like re-testing drivers and automatic braking technology.

Again, I largely think this is a problem restricted to automatic vehicles.

This was a textbook case of pedal confusion

Stop spreading misinformation. The expert in the case said it was:

The expert collision investigator disagreed with Heagren's account and concluded the tragedy was a result of driver error and was 'a classic case of pedal confusion'.

He told the court that in his opinion Heagren selected the wrong gear, became confused between the pedals, and then depressed the accelerator firmly believing it to be the foot brake.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7833247/amp/Driver-87-dies-heart-attack-prison-nine-days-jailed-killing-woman.html

I am currently driving a different car to normal and reverse gear is in a different place. I have had to think am I in reverse or first before moving. I have not got it wrong yet.

A question for those of you who claim it was an accident or pedal confusion.

There is surely a point at which you realise you are going faster rather than stopping, so there is a point at which it stops being pedal confusion.

How far do you think you need to travel to reach this point or for how long?

Isn't it manslaughter and therefore the penalties are written in law so you can't make allowances.
Sorry, just come to this thread and 16 pages are too many to read.

Also people beyond their capabilities need to realise there are consequences.

If they regularly let people off the American lady who killed the motor cyclist would have come here and faced the consequences but I'm sure she would go to jail for that offence so is staying in the US.

Ok, storytime. My high-school friend was picking me up from my house and had pedal confusion. She careened right through our front gate. Thankfully, she only caused property damage.

What if a pedestrian happened to have been walking by that morning? She would not be the normal member of society she is today, she’d have been tossed in jail for years for something that was an accident and very common among the young and elderly (see my post upthread).

It is a known problem with automatic cars. It’s very easy to confuse the pedals when you don’t have to shift gears. Adults typically can react fast and avoid serious collisions but inexperienced drivers (my friend had had her license maybe less than six months) and elderly drivers can get very panicked and confused by this. Very often, the panicked driver will keep depressing the accelerator, thinking it is the brake.

According to the article I posted, there are 44 accidents of this type in the US every day. IIRC 500 people a year are killed in the US by pedal confusion.

The article talked about ways of prevention, that is, re-testing older drivers (I also think 16 is too young, as is the legal age over there) and better technology in automatic cars to detect pedal confusion and provide automatic braking technology.

Nowhere is jail mentioned because it is understood that a) it is an accident and b) it does nothing for prevention, where future lives can be saved

It is not an accident it is bad driving. The many accidents in the US are probably due to big population/ everyone owning a car/ no public transport in many states so no option but to drive at an old age.
The collisions in car parks are probably with another car. So at a slow speed and no injury. And there are fewer pedestrians as distances are bigger so fewer killed.
Jailing a few oldies will definitely make them think (as a nearly oldie I would definitely want to stop before I was a liability - imagine having to live with a child's death on your conscience) about driving when they are less confident or able so would be a good thing.

The collisions in car parks are probably with another car. So at a slow speed and no injury. And there are fewer pedestrians as distances are bigger so fewer killed

In many cases, the driver keeps depressing the accelerator in a panic as they think it’s the brake, so not necessarily slow speeds. The article I linked had an elderly woman kill one and injure six others in a parking lot (the article also notes that a few hours later, another elderly woman in the same city careened into a post office, though no one was injured or killed). Stats show that 500 people are killed a year in the US due to pedal confusion. As I said, more likely in the US because hardly anyone uses a manual car.

It will increase in the UK because of the increasing popularity of automatic cars and the aging population. Jailing will do nothing to prevent it either.

I'd much rather see everyone take a new test/assessment every 5 years regardless of age.

So would I. It's easy to put the idea of re-testing off until 70 or say it's for the "oldies".

EuphorbiaHemlockthe1st

I would definitely want to stop before I was a liability

Would you know you were a liability? You may be already, for all you know.

If the argument is that people's driving can become impaired as they get older, so may their self-awareness.
And some may have started out without self-awareness in the first place.

I've seen it in my professional life and I've seen it in my private life. The arguments are the same:

"I've driven for x years and never had an accident"
"I'd know if my driving was getting worse"
"I passed a advanced driving test!" (shouted at me by a friend who pulled out obliviously into a car's path; I pointed this out. She followed up with...)
"It's the boy racers who cause the accidents!".

She had a point there. The driver coming up behind was going far too fast in a 30mph area. They both needed re-testing.

So, yes - regularly re-test everyone.
Then we'd all pay a bit more attention.

Otherwise, the concept of being an "oldie" is always going to be at least 5 years away in our heads.

It's one of those irregular verbs:

I'm an experienced driver.

You may need re-testing

They're senile* and a danger on the roads

*Btw, "senile" is not a synonym for having a dementing illness.

Yes, definitely many will be unaware their driving has deteriorated - but the stats show it is young people who cause car collisions more than oldies. But who will pay to retest everyone? If you say people must pay to sit the test you will be lambasted for being noninclusive of poor people, if the state pays then it is more of a burden on the younger tax payers.

EuphorbiaHemlockthe1st

You're right - it would be a political minefield.
Probably it's something that should have been brought in with the original driving test.

And if was clever cunning enough to bring in legislation without people complaining well... let's just say, the PM's clothes might fit a little better now 🤫

Perhaps something voluntary could be brought in initially. For instance, maybe your insurance could be a bit lower if you took a re-test.

I don't know. I do know that just writing things off to "oldies" (which is a rather dismissive term), young men or whoever means it's easy never to believe that it might be us.

And, in the spirit of non-discrimination, I totally think this man should have been sentenced in accordance with the law.

If anyone is getting confused over which pedal to press they should not get in the car, whatever the age!

Same as PP, I had to drive a different car and I was thoughtful and careful in how I drove it and made sure reverse and first were correct.

If a driver is not doing this or is confused they should not even be driving.

This case is very different to the US examples given - he had already had the minor excusable accident BUT he carried on driving killing and injuring others. Very different to the one-off examples given by others. He chose to crash the SECOND time knowing he was confused!

It’s very easy to confuse the pedals when you don’t have to shift gears. Adults typically can react fast and avoid serious collisions but inexperienced drivers (my friend had had her license maybe less than six months) and elderly drivers can get very panicked and confused by this.

I would argue it’s not easy to confuse them. If it was so easy to confuse them there would be a hell of a lot more accidents than there are. I can’t imagine confusing them. If you find this simple concept with 2 pedals confusing then you shouldn’t be driving at all, whether you are 20yo or 90yo.

Testing introduced for over 70s will take some drivers off the road but will not resolve the issue. The accident in this case happened due to the drivers agitated state, that is very different from a test scenario which he may have passed.

Mandatory testing for all drivers is not practical in reality. What happens when someone who is a competent driver fails a retest just because they had a bad day, are just nervous under test conditions, fail parallel parking as they rarely need to and are out of practice? Do they get taken off the road, can't get their kids to school, can't get to work, live ruraly and can't get out of their home? There are around 45 million active driving licenses in the uk, all to be retested every 5 years, even half this number would be a challenge.

I would argue it’s not easy to confuse them

The stats speak otherwise: 44 accidents a day, 500 killed annually in the US due to pedal confusion. Most occuring in young and elderly drivers in parking lots.

They let an old man die in prison for something that is very common among his age group; but I guess it’s easier to jail people than find a workable solution.

Possible solutions? Rethink automatic cars in the UK, stringent requirements for drivers past 75, further technological development in automatic braking systems to compensate.

"If anyone is getting confused over which pedal to press they should not get in the car, whatever the age!:
It's a momentary thing...they are not confused about it all the time!!! They can drive perfectly well up to the point the confusion starts, which often causes an accident. It probably lasts seconds but unfortunately seconds cause accidents. So it's not a case of "if you get confused with pedals dont get in the car"!!!

A very elderly lady who clearly could not see well crashed into my new lease car in a city the other day. She just switched lanes without even looking taking off my wing mirror and nearly sending me into the path of a lorry. When I asked her to come out of the car to exchange insurance details she couldn't get out as she clearly had problems with her legs and could not write dowe her details as "I forgot to put my glasses on this morning" I rang the police to attend and they agreed she shouldnt be driving at all as she couldn't see and was barely mobile and they took her off home. I was appalled. How the he'll is she still driving? My own grandmother only stopped driving at 87 when she wrapped her car round a tree. There have to be more safeguards. This can't go on.

Again....
It was his SECOND "accident" that caused the death and life changing injuries. He CHOSE to drive whilst in a confused/angry state.

I do actually agree about momentary lapses although bearing in mind the population of the US that drives is 222Million. The number of deaths stated are rare.

Comparing momentary lapses with 2 accidents minutes apartwhere anger was an aggravating factor is not comparing apples with apples.

The judge had all the facts and made the right decision.

It was his SECOND "accident" that caused the death and life changing injuries

Yet the actual details of the second accident do not differ from that of the elderly lady in the States who killed one and injured six. She was not arrested nor cited for dangerous driving.

Someone upthread mentioned mandatory sentencing, so maybe it was out of his/her hands. I was astonished that you could be jailed for this, would not happen in my home country.

Death by dangerous driving sentences are a joke anyway. The law essentially says that if you want to knock an enemy off, just run them over! If you do get sent down, it won't be for the length time served for manslaughter / murder by other means, like a knife, or beating.

My friend was a pedestrian and was killed four years ago on his way home from work, by two dickheads racing, with one car on the wrong side of the road. They hit my friend and immediately left the scene. Leaving my friend dying in the gutter, in the arms of a stranger whose house was next to the crash.

My friend was 28. The cunts that killed him did a lot to cover up their tracks, hid the vehicle and pretended they sold it before the crash, had family lie for them, alibis etc. Pleaded not guilty. Were found guilty and got eight years (out in four) and 14 months respectively. Extra time for perverting the course of justice. Makes me sick that my mate's life was worth so little in the eyes of the law.

When I used to work for the Motor Insurers' Bureau, I was aware of an incident of a doctor not paying attention, his car mounted the pavement, and he killed a school girl. Guess how long he got in prison?

Nothing, it was a suspended sentence, fine, ban and community service.

That's quite frankly disgusting.

Pedal confusion?! Wtf?

If you’re confused by the pedals you shouldn’t be driving. No matter what your age.

@HelloToMyKitty
Your US lady had 1 incident. No chance to stop it.

The UK man had one incident which did not hurt anyone- it was His decision to get back in the car and caused the second accident. He made the decision whilst already impaired.

The only similarity with these 2 incidents is the outcome. EVERYTHING else is different.

Did the US lady get in her car angry from a previous incident within 2 mins? Did the US lady have a spouse there who could have driven off them after the first incident? Did the US lady express how angry she was to the attending police officers? Did the US lady not expess remorse at all at any point?

The US lady to skipped the country?

If you’re confused by the pedals you shouldn’t be driving. No matter what your age

Pedal confusion happens among inexperienced young drivers and the elderly. You might say it shouldn’t happen, but the reality is a bit different.

Did the US lady not expess remorse at all at any point?

She didn’t have to, she wasn’t even arrested nor given a citation.

You can have pedal confusion in a non automatic surely. The stats in the US are as they are because everyone drives an automatic.
Surely having three pedals, one for the left and two for the right is much the same a two for the right - unless the americans drive two footed with two pedals

@Lordfrontpaw
No, not the Sacoolas lady - the poster is comparing an old lady having 1 incident and killing a person to what the UK man did.. totally different scenarios.

FWIW Sacoolas needs to get her backside into the UK and face justice. How could she have just left? I could not live with myself.