To think this is unreasonable and this judge knowingly scentenced this man to death

[Sootyandsweep2019]

Just read a heartbreaking story in the paper about an 87 year old man, who given a 27 month prison sentence after he killed someone in a car accident. The judge was warned at the time by the man's doctors that this was highly likely to lead to his death; but went ahead and did it anyway. As predicted, he died nine days later. This was not murder, this was not malicious; it was a complete, tragic accident.

By all means ban him from driving if he was a danger, look at tightening the driving regulations around older drivers.

But our obsession with "making people pay," for genuine accidents has led to this utter tragedy .

The poor man must have been terrified. I really think this particular judge/ case needs urgent investigation; and we need a wider look at whether prison is always an appropriate response to car accident s like this.

Sadly I don't expect the judge/ CPS/ solicitors etc. Feel guilty at all.

He had an accident. Then he got straight back into his car and killed a woman.

*Heagren's car had hit a bollard at slow speed minutes before it slammed into the women, Harrow Crown Court was told.

Then aged 86, he was seen in an angry state looking at the damage to the front bumper before getting back into the car and slamming the door shut.

Describing his initial collision, Heagren told police: “I was raging with myself by that time for being a bloody fool.”*

I've been following this thread and am amazed it's still going.
It's no great surprise that this man died - he was 87 and it's an inescapable fact that the older you are, the more likely you are to die.

So it was very possible he could die in jail.
That's not a reason not to give him the appropriate term as laid down in the law.

I've got considerable form for posting about ageism. I used to work with the elderly and the casual ageism on MN absolutely staggers me.

However, I think that this sentence was entirely justified. I've seen the lengths people will go to to continue driving despite it being unsafe. I've seen the lengths family will go to in order to enable someone to continue driving despite eg a diagnosis of dementia. Often this is due to a female spouse not being able to drive (a generational thing, which will no doubt change over time) and thinking, "He's safe enough just to get to the shops and there's only a bus twice a week. Wouldn't let him go on the motorway, mind...".

Doctors have fewer powers to stop people driving than you'd think. A PP said that someone's GP wouldn't take the car keys off a patient because they (the GP) were sympathetic. No, it's because doctors can't forcibly take someone's property away.
And even if you give, what seems to you, a damning report on someone's mental state to the DVLA, it's very unusual indeed for them to have their licence removed.

I'm wholly in support of driving tests after the age of 70.
The ageism lies in: why 70?
Maybe every ten years after passing the test.
Or every x amount of years after passing the test based on evidence as to risky behaviours by a demographic. Older drivers often quote younger men as having the most accidents. Maybe bring in a re-test 2 years after qualifying for them.

And, OP: it's very difficult to believe that you haven't an axe to grind here (eg similar offence by someone you know/you/relationship with the man who died) or aren't just goading people.
The other alternative is that you're very blinkered and not able to accept/understand ideas that are different from yours.

Hitting a "ripe old age" doesn't automatically make you a sweet old person to feel sorry for

That's so true. My F was abusive to us as children, DSis and I suffered SA at his hands and all 3 of us (including my DB) suffered physical abuse, and my DM went through EA and coercive control. In his later years he had Parkinson's Disease and several strokes, and was disabled. I was guilt tripped into helping to care for him, which made me feel considerable guilt for hating him for most of my life, and screwed me up after he passed away over 20 years ago.

I now understand that he remained the abusive arsehole he always was, he just happened to suffer from Parkinson's Disease as well. (I've now read some of the letters he sent to my DM when she was away (he was perfectly well cared for), and they were full of EA, which she didn't recognise as such then.

It has made all our lives better to realise the truth and released me from my false guilt.

The man in question appears to have been a deeply unpleasant man and not deserving of anyone's sympathy.

If hitting a bollard made him so angry I'd
question what his character was like anyway. Along with showing no remorse and an irrational anger at a small incident (when he originally hit the first bollard, certainly not referring to what happened next) he sounds like a thoroughly unpleasant man.

KIlls one woman, causes "life-changing injuries" to another woman and nearly hits a father with his children, and all this immediately following another accident where he hit a bollard that could just have easily been yet another person. It seems to be a sad reflection that in our society people are so selfish that they continue to drive even when they know they are not safe to do so - elderly drivers, those with medical conditions or failing eyesight etc do not want to give up their independence and driving licences so just carry on regardless. We had an elderly neighbour many years ago who at 89 just got a routine letter from her GP each year even though she was nearly blind! She nearly ran my partner over a few times heading into the car park and, after nearly hitting me once I challenged her - the response I got was "I didn't see you dear, you must be mistaken, I only go to the same places every time I drive and have been there so often I could drive there blindfolded". Needless to say I was dumbfounded, and though it was sad when she died I was grateful that she was no longer a menace on the roads. Nobody likes to admit they can no longer do things, that their eyes are not so good, their reactions less sharp etc but if people cannot admit their own failings maybe someone else needs to point it out or the law needs to be tweaked.

The OP has never expressed any compassion or sorrow for the victims on this thread. She only seems to care about the poor old man who 'accidentally' killed one woman in a terrifying way and left another with life-long injuries and trauma. Anyone who thinks like this must be an unfeeling monster. I can only believe she is related to the perpetrator.

It does seem over the top considering that a friend's son was stabbed and his assailant got community service. He did survive but has life changing injuries and several months in hospital and rehab.
Our whole justice system needs an overall.

@SupportingSally sorry don't have sympathy for the 18 year old in your post either. She drank, then got behind the wheel of a car. She was over the limit and was involved in a fatal car crash.

She may have paid a price - prison time, but that's what happens if you drive while over the limit. She made that decision, and sadly that came with a horrific price. They could have got a taxi, called a parent etc

@tigger1001. Can you hand on heart say you have NEVER driven whilst on the phone or having had a modest amount to drink? Lots of people have. We can’t send them all to prison. We have to change the culture that allows selfish/risky behaviours instead of randomly picking 1 in 10000 miscreants and locking them up whilst all the others go free purely for a random outcome that can’t be changed, and the imprisonment will make zero difference to reducing such accidents in the future.

I have less sympathy for the 18yo girl than for the 85yo man as she did have some culpability whereas he didn’t. But it served society no purpose locking her up. For every girl like her, people have 100 friends they know have driven after a drink and got away with it. That’s what we need to change. Deterrence is linked to the (perceived) chance of being caught and not to the level of punishment meted out.

“Seemed angry`’ - this is from grainy CCTV. What does seeming angry look like? Should that kind of unreliable evidence send someone to prison? Are you not allowed to drive when you are angry? Shall we imprison everyone who drives when angry? If you drove into a bollard you would probably a) be angry with yourself and b) get back in to reverse off the bit of pavement you were on. May god help you if you then hit the wrong pedal and the mob bays to condemn you to death. Accidents happen. There is zero evidence - and nobody has suggested it - that this chap deliberately set out to harm anyone. He confused two pedals, his seemingly first driving error in decades. The consequences happened to be devastating but that still doesn’t Justify what was a death sentence. Every time you buy a new dress instead of donating that money to a malaria vaccination charity, you are probably condemning 2 children to death where you could save them. Should you go to prison for that? Obviously not. When finding people responsible for death we have to consider what level of intent we want to find.

Well, maybe the girls friends will think it’s a deterrent after she drove drunk and dangerously when resulted in a prison sentence. So some good comes out of it.

I live in a town with a high percentage of elderly drivers. They cause the majority of crashes in our town. We have been involved in several near misses with elder drivers who seem to believe they have the right to do whatever they want to.
I've also seen a woman get off with a fine and points on her licence when she killed my friends mum cause she was texting on her phone while driving. It caused an outrage.
This guy killed one woman and seriously injured another. His age has nothing to do with the sentence he got.

@SupportingSally yes I can honestly say that I have never got behind the wheel after even a single drink. My phone is in my bag, and my phone also has a function that when it is connected to Bluetooth I get no notifications/texts etc - instead it automatically sends a response saying I'm driving so oh etc know I'm in the car. It doesn't get taken out (unless my eldest is in the car and gets it so he can text his dad etc) until I get to my destination. Sadly I have friends who have witnessed the devastation that being on a phone can cause.

Drink driving ruins lives. And anyone caught deserves the book thrown at them, not anyone's sympathy. My sympathy is for the victims of drink drivers, not the ones who thought the rules and laws don't apply to them.

My DF had dementia at 87 and the doctors and DVLA gave him permission to carry on driving, in his state of mind he could quite easily have done what this old man did, but fortunately my DM lied to him and told him that his licence had been taken away and made him sell the car.

The law needs to be changed so that any mental impairments in old age results in the loss of the driving licence.

SupportingSally why are you so defensive of this man?

That lady would still be alive but for that mans actions. What he did caused her death. HIS ACTIONS.

He wasn't condemned to death though was he?

He was sent to prison by a judge.

So the baying mob didn’t exactly condemn him to death did they?

People on this thread are not celebrating his death but are discussing the fact that there was justice for his VICTIMS.

It isn’t really that hard to understand.

Yabu

He should have a prison sentence and was rightly sentenced regardless of his age, race, sex, gender

Where do you draw the line OP

can't stand all this bleeding heart nonsense on MN

He was sentenced to death. He was 87 with a broken hip. Have any of you the least idea what life is like in prison? Where you have to choose between cleaning your toilet bowl (6 inches from your face when you lie on your bed), or brushing your teeth. The loos have no lids and prisoners are not allowed cleaning materials. Fresh veg does not exist. Outdoors does not exist (people avoid the gardening jobs as that is here a lot of tools are found, and much violence). You cannot just book in and see a doctor when you have medical needs. In women’s prisons, self-harm is the norm and you will never know in the morning if your friend has stuffed cloth down her throat in an attempt to suffocate, or not.

FFS. This chap was 85 and mistook the accelerator for the brake. Would you have demanded the same punishment if he hadn’t knocked anyone over: It would have been the same `‘actus reus”.

I don’t like to witness needless suffering. Especially at taxpayer expense. His victims are not a jot better off with him in prison or dead. But the accident might never have happened if some of the money spent on prisons (where we lock up an awful lot of people) had instead been spent on, I dunno, bus services. I am no bleeding heart liberal, but a hard-nosed lawyer with some logic and the tiniest amount of compassion and a familiarity with prison visiting.

@happinessischocolate is on the right lines.

At first I thought poor old man but when I read the article I changed my opinion. It was very sad he died but the judge did the right thing in the circmstances, in my opinion. I am a female 62 year old driver and still feel that my driving is safe. Most elderly people I know give up driving at around 80. perhaps an additional test at around 75 years old.

Well, it’s not supposed to be a holiday camp. And for the ninetith million times, it was no accident. He deserved the jail time and it’s unfortunate he died and couldn’t see out his sentence.

It would have been the same `‘actus reus”

No it wouldn’t. It may have been the same mens rea same as the mens rea for murder and attempted murder is the same but the actus reus is different.

Using your logic sentencing for completed and attempted crimes would be the same. Of course dangerous driving is actually worse when it kills someone. That’s why it’s a separate offence on the statute book.

SupportingSally why are you so defensive of this man?

I think her next post makes this clear. Makes a good living defending scumbags

She can’t be a criminal defence lawyer, not with her incorrect posts about th W young girl who went to prison after drink driving.

“Seemed angry`’ - this is from grainy CCTV. What does seeming angry look like?

There is no "seems" about it- this is what HE told the police- he told police he was in "a rage" after hitting the bollard. He has also never apologised or commented on what he did. Do you not think thats a bit odd? wouldn't a decent person at least have said sorry or admitted it was his fault???

People continue to drive because they don't adequately plan for their retirement. Half the people I visit whilst working for the NHS live in big homes with massive gardens in the middle of the countryside (very rural county) with NO buses or computer skills so they can't order things in like shopping. They will retire somewhere totally unsuitable for ageing, you only have to watch escape to the country to see that!
I've seen people stranded in this way for the last 30 years and have planned for my retirement by buying a house in a quiet close in the middle of a small town that has everything within easy walking distance including GP and I am computer literate. When I retire in a few years time I'll be sorted for everything and won't need a car.