Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think this is unreasonable and this judge knowingly scentenced this man to death

866 replies

Sootyandsweep2019 · 29/12/2019 10:07

Just read a heartbreaking story in the paper about an 87 year old man, who given a 27 month prison sentence after he killed someone in a car accident. The judge was warned at the time by the man's doctors that this was highly likely to lead to his death; but went ahead and did it anyway. As predicted, he died nine days later. This was not murder, this was not malicious; it was a complete, tragic accident.

By all means ban him from driving if he was a danger, look at tightening the driving regulations around older drivers.

But our obsession with "making people pay," for genuine accidents has led to this utter tragedy .

The poor man must have been terrified. I really think this particular judge/ case needs urgent investigation; and we need a wider look at whether prison is always an appropriate response to car accident s like this.

Sadly I don't expect the judge/ CPS/ solicitors etc. Feel guilty at all.

OP posts:
Juliette20 · 30/12/2019 07:54

or if a pattern of dangerous driving had been established

Oh right. So under your system people have to undertake a campaign of killing a maiming pedestrians before they would be punished? As that sounds really sensible. Would it be like the current points system? 1 death = 1 point. Finally you lose your licence after 12.

HelloToMyKitty · 30/12/2019 07:55

As I mentioned before, generally we're far too lenient on drivers that kill. In order to secure a conviction, the charge is often dropped to 'death by careless driving', rather than dangerous, as it's easier to prosecute, but unfortunately carries much lower sentences

You act as if harsh sentencing will reduce road deaths (which should be the ultimate goal) but you’ve not established that this would actually be accomplished by jailing people. After all, you don’t know who is a “dangerous” driver until the first accident that happens to kill someone.

If you want to campaign for stricter laws on licensing, well, there’s definitely argument for that. But jailing people after the fact doesn’t do anything but satisfy your desire for punishment. Harsh punishment has never been proven as a deterrent.

HelloToMyKitty · 30/12/2019 07:59

So under your system people have to undertake a campaign of killing a maiming pedestrians before they would be punished

The articles do not indicate that he had been involved in road accidents before unless you have information I’m not privy to? Do you think anything other than his age predicted this outcome?

Moondancer73 · 30/12/2019 08:00

YABU - if he can't tell the accelerator from the brake then no way should he have been driving. He killed one person and injured another, didn't apologise. He walks with a frame, how is he safe to drive?

Juliette20 · 30/12/2019 08:02

Harsh punishment has never been proven as a deterrent

The point of a prison sentence is not just "pour encourager les autres". It's a question of public safety, rehabilitation of offenders AND punishment.

Juliette20 · 30/12/2019 08:05

Walking with a frame is not necessarily an indicator of not being able to drive well, unless you want to ban all disabled people entitled to a blue badge from the roads.

HelloToMyKitty · 30/12/2019 08:06

It's a question of public safety, rehabilitation of offenders AND punishment

At least you admit it is all about punishment here. Because permanently taking his license away accomplishes the first.

Juliette20 · 30/12/2019 08:11

Of course it is about punishment. Why should someone committing a serious crime not be punished for it?

It's a basic tenet of criminal law and of society.

www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/about-sentencing/sentencing-basics/

A sentence is the punishment a judge or magistrate decides should be given to someone who has been convicted of a crime

ivykaty44 · 30/12/2019 08:16

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/sentences-killer-drivers-might-surprise-15531777
Break the law and you’ll get a short stay in prison if you kill your victim, but rarely more than a couple of years

HelloToMyKitty · 30/12/2019 08:19

Why should someone committing a serious crime not be punished for it?

Because we typically make a distinction between accidents and criminal activity? Punishing genuine accidents serves no purpose.

ivykaty44 · 30/12/2019 08:20

Because permanently taking his license away accomplishes the first.

Even if you kill, it’s very very rare that you’d not get your licence back. 5 dead every day by driver collisions, 1700 each year and 23000 maimed and injured.less 1 driver per year would get a life ban on driving

ivykaty44 · 30/12/2019 08:22

Because we typically make a distinction between accidents and criminal activity? Punishing genuine accidents serves no purpose.

Not when driving, you can speed, drink drive, drug drive which are all criminal activities and still walk free from court

ivykaty44 · 30/12/2019 08:25

Technically, 'road rage' itself is not an offence. But should road rage lead to aggressive driving then motorists may be found guilty of careless or dangerous driving which could see them fined, banned from driving, or even face jail time.

The old man drive in a rage, which lead to the death of a person and therefore wasn’t an accident but criminal action

HelloToMyKitty · 30/12/2019 08:27

5 dead every day by driver collisions, 1700 each year and 23000 maimed and injured.less 1 driver per year would get a life ban on driving

I don’t think this particular man would have ever been able to get a license again.

HelloToMyKitty · 30/12/2019 08:29

Not when driving, you can speed, drink drive, drug drive which are all criminal activities and still walk free from court

Well that’s the problem then. You are considered to have intent in these cases and are not mere accidents.

Juliette20 · 30/12/2019 08:30

Because we typically make a distinction between accidents and criminal activity

We certainly do. He committed a crime, so where is your argument going here?

HelloToMyKitty · 30/12/2019 08:33

Intent matters even in criminal proceedings so not sure what you’re crowing about here. It was still considered an accident as has been documented in articles on the case.

AlessandraBumbrosio · 30/12/2019 08:34

Of course he should have received a custodial sentence idgaf that hes old. Its no excuse. Are you his family because you sound awfully invested and biased op?

tigger1001 · 30/12/2019 08:35

It wasn't just an accident though was it? He had already had an accident and got back behind the wheel in a rage. That's what caused the death of one and the serious injury of another. It was death by dangerous driving. Custodial sentence was inevitable.

ivykaty44 · 30/12/2019 08:36

Hellokitty are you missing the point that road rage can become a crime and therefore this case wasn’t a mere accident and that is why he went to prison as he showed no remorse for the crime he committed

Besidesthepoint · 30/12/2019 08:38

Well, all the people asking what I would feel if this was my child; how would you feel if this was your elderly parents/ grandparent ?

My dad is one of thos pig headed old men who will drive even when tjhe clearly is a danger on the road. I wouldn't be surprised if he hit someone. I would feel sorry for him but plenty of us have spoken to him about handing in his license. The sane will go for this case.

beautifulstranger101 · 30/12/2019 08:39

I dont agree at all. You can't use age as a reason not to give people fair punishments. How on earth is that fair? Should we have let Rolf Harris off jail time "because he's old"? No.

I'm sorry but if that had been your child I think your response would be entirely different. He killed someone.

SupportingSally · 30/12/2019 08:39

@HelloToMyKitty. I agree with everything you say.

Ultimately this case comes down to the following:

Mistaking the brake for the accelerator is legally within the definition of dangerous driving. (As is mistakenly driving on the wrong side of the road). Even though it is a mistake and not a deliberate act. This man did not “choose” to drive dangerously, unlike someone who chooses to speed, or drive after a drink, or texts at the wheel (?how many of you have done that?).

If your dangerous driving (even if it is a MISTAKE rather than a deliberate act - and I would distinguish the two) happens not to kill anyone, then you get almost no punishment.

If your dangerous driving happens to kill someone then the starting point for sentencing is a mandatory prison term.

Who does that help???

It would be much better to fine drivers to the tune of thousands of pounds for using their mobile phones at the wheel to reduce the rates of (deliberate) dangerous driving and not leave them unpunished just because there is no KSI (killing or serious injury) which at the moment is the only time the police check phone records after accidents. This would actually save lives unlike jailing a man who would undoubtedly never drive again and had killed a woman by accident.

The problem is mandatory sentencing. Ken Clarke was going to repeal those laws but ceased to be a minister before he could.

Mandatory sentencing is what went wrong with the Sally Challen case too, in which I was heavily involved...... she was convicted of murder (8 years later reduced to manslaughter on appeal). She was then sentenced to life imprisonment - so far, so normal - but with a mandatory MINIMUM term of 22 years (reduced to 18 years on sentencing appeal) because of the use of a weapon brought to the scene. She was going to serve more time than almost any male murderer who kills his partner with his bare hands, with no mitigating circumstances whatsoever, because she was caught by mandatory sentencing laws aimed at gangs carrying knives. Had the Judge had discretion on sentencing, hundreds of thousands of pounds of public money would have been saved and a suitable sentence served in the first place.

I can give many other examples of cruel (and expensive to the taxpayer) outcomes of mandatory sentencing. Leave judges with discretion.

Picking up on the point of an earlier poster - no, this man did not have a dignified death. Far from it.

Where is everyone’s logic and humanity? Condemning him to a cruel and dreadful end, having by all accounts been a perfectly decent human being all his life, didn’t do a single thing to ameliorate the suffering of those he (accidentally) ran over, and their families.

beautifulstranger101 · 30/12/2019 08:39

Well, all the people asking what I would feel if this was my child; how would you feel if this was your elderly parents/ grandparent

I would be sad, but I wouldn't think they had a right to get off scot free. Thats not justice.