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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think this is unreasonable and this judge knowingly scentenced this man to death

866 replies

Sootyandsweep2019 · 29/12/2019 10:07

Just read a heartbreaking story in the paper about an 87 year old man, who given a 27 month prison sentence after he killed someone in a car accident. The judge was warned at the time by the man's doctors that this was highly likely to lead to his death; but went ahead and did it anyway. As predicted, he died nine days later. This was not murder, this was not malicious; it was a complete, tragic accident.

By all means ban him from driving if he was a danger, look at tightening the driving regulations around older drivers.

But our obsession with "making people pay," for genuine accidents has led to this utter tragedy .

The poor man must have been terrified. I really think this particular judge/ case needs urgent investigation; and we need a wider look at whether prison is always an appropriate response to car accident s like this.

Sadly I don't expect the judge/ CPS/ solicitors etc. Feel guilty at all.

OP posts:
trappedsincesundaymorn · 29/12/2019 15:08

Putting such an elderly man in gaol didn't bring the dead person back, there was absolutely no point in that sentence

At what age then would you deem the sentence appropriate then? If it's good enough for one then it's good enough for all...are you suggesting that he should have been given a slap on the wrist or walked away a free man because nothing will bring the person he killed back so why bother with a punishment at all?

ChristmasCroissant · 29/12/2019 15:10

If you drive, you are subject to the laws of driving. Very odd to think that someone should be let off the law because of their age, YABU OP. If they are too old for the law to apply, then surely they are too old to drive?

fascinated · 29/12/2019 15:11

Sentencing is also about PREVENTION. Certain behaviour attracts a certain tariff so that others know the behaviour is unacceptable. If you then just waive the sentence it sends out a very conflicting message. He was reckless, and we don’t encourage recklessness. We try and get people to think seriously about whether they are capable to drive, whether that is down to drink, age, medication use or whatever.

StoneofDestiny · 29/12/2019 15:14

Prisons are for people who pose a danger to the public. If this old man had his car crushed and license revoked, he no longer posed a risk. Imprisoning a person costs taxpayers £30,000 pa. By all means seize his assets, put a lean on his home for funds to compensate families affected and legal costs. Imprisoning him is just an expensive option that serves little purpose.
I have no sympathy for the old man, he made his choices, and too many people of that age seem to think they have a right to drive.

TabbyMumz · 29/12/2019 15:23

Nobody has mentioned if he gave up his licence?

ChilliMayo · 29/12/2019 15:23

Sentencing also acts as a deterrent. If it has made one 85 yr old with, eg, a bit of macular degeneration or arthritis of the neck, decide to put the car keys away then it's been worthwhile. If one Mumsnetter has read this and decided to have a chat with DM or DFIL in the new year then it's been worthwhile. I myself had that chat with DMIL recently and sleep much better knowing she is off the road.

donquixotedelamancha · 29/12/2019 15:24

I have said he should be banned from driving, and that there should definitely be a review of driving requirements for 80+.

Being banned from driving is not an appropriate consequence for killing someone.

He made a decision to drive angry. That is not a function of being old. Perhaps age and infirmity impaired him- all the more reason to be cautious. A 70+ driving test will not magically prevent dangerous driving by selfish gits.

I'm not Anne Sacoolas's lawyer, but I don't believe she should return to the u.k and I'm glad the chances of her being .are to return is small.

Holy fuck. I have no words.

tigger1001 · 29/12/2019 15:26

Sorry, but my sympathy is for the victims and their families. He killed someone, seriously injured another and almost hit a father and child, all within a few minutes. Of course he was a danger to the public - he demonstrated that very well that day.

Should he not be punished because of his age? It's sad that he died in prison, but you can't not pass sentence on someone because you feel they won't live in jail. I know of an 87 year old man who was given 3 years in Parisian due to historical sexual abuse, I would be surprised if he makes it out of jail - should he not have been given jail time because of his age? There are sentencing guidelines for this very reason - it takes emotion etc out of the mix.

JustASmallTownCurl · 29/12/2019 15:29

Prison time is also a deterrent. That doesn't mean to the individual involved. I bet this case has encouraged a number of families to talk to elderly relatives about their driving ability / it being time to surrender their license because they wouldn't want this to happen to their family. Justice doesn't solely punish the offender, it displays justice values to the victims family and acts as a deterrent to potential future offenders. I don't see what's hard to understand about that.

Blackberrybunnet · 29/12/2019 15:30

Totally not a fan of prison sentences unless the perpetrator is danger to the public. This having been said, this man WAS a danger to the public. I am sure an alternative penalty could have been used - eg house arrest, tagging, etc., but these kinds of sentences need a change in sentencing laws. This is only one case, but should be part of a much bigger conversation on our penal laws.

PepePig · 29/12/2019 15:56

He killed someone. Shouldn't have been driving. Deserved his sentence. End off.

ILearnedItFromABook · 29/12/2019 16:19

After reading the details of the story, no, I don't think it was wrong to send him to jail. Being jailed is at least partly a punishment (i.e. "making people pay for their crimes"), and that's as it should be. It's not only (or even always) to protect the public from the risk of future crimes from an individual. (And if it were, likely plenty of people should be locked away for life, based on recidivism rates for certain crimes.) The fact that this criminal was elderly and died soon after being jailed has nothing to do with it. Do the crime, do the time.

ThanosSavedMe · 29/12/2019 16:32

Op so you’d be fine if your child, parent or grandparent was killed in this way and the person responsible (who showed no remorse and didn’t apologise) received no punishment because it was their 1st offence?

SalrycLuxx · 29/12/2019 16:54

He was awful, showed no remorse, and got what was coming to him.

And as to By all means seize his assets, put a lean on his home for funds to compensate families affected and legal costs. It would have been somehow better to impoverish him so he slowly wasted away out of the public eye? or if he’s rich the family could have their ‘blood money’ (term taken from cultures where this is apparently a thing) and he can effectively buy his way out of any real consequences?

Old man died after angrily killing a woman and crippling another permanently. is have preferred him to last longer in Jail but that’s the only thing I’d change.

DeeCeeCherry · 29/12/2019 16:58

But so many people are let off with a ban, fine and community service or suspended sentence in same circumstances. Why was this man treated differently? I'm not saying he should have got off scot free but, why the inconsistency?

TooManyPaws · 29/12/2019 16:59

So old men who kill shouldn't go to jail because they may die there? How do you feel, OP, about the elderly Peter Tobin currently dying of cancer in Staughton? Plenty of old men who kill die in prison every year. This man's actions directly led to death and life changing injuries; it's only the actions of another man that saved a child from being among the dead. He died where he should have been due to his own actions; the only pity is that he didn't live longer to truly reflect on his actions.

gypsywater · 29/12/2019 17:00

This has got to be some trolling Hmm
Noone could be this dumb, surely

BonnyConnie · 29/12/2019 17:08

Once the jury found him guilty the judge didn’t have a choice not to put him into prison. There is a court of appeal case stating minimum sentencing for the conviction. If there were no aggravating factors the least he could be sentenced to is one year. Judges don’t get to decide to just not sentence someone once they’ve been convicted. That’s not how the legal system works. If you have an issue with the sentencing system you’d best contact your MP and ask them to legislate a non-jail option where there is no intention to kill.

StoneofDestiny · 29/12/2019 17:09

Prison time is also a deterrent

But it isn't, and certainly not in this type of situation. I'm certain there is no 80+ driver out there thinking 'I'd better not drive anymore in case I hit someone and end up in prison'.

gypsywater · 29/12/2019 17:16

At what age would you draw the line? Hmm

gypsywater · 29/12/2019 17:17

@BonnyConnie good advice...but you know they wont...some people just like a little moan

JustASmallTownCurl · 29/12/2019 17:18

But it isn't, and certainly not in this type of situation. I'm certain there is no 80+ driver out there thinking 'I'd better not drive anymore in case I hit someone and end up in prison'.

Surely as I said it will act as a deterrent in that families and caregivers will talk to their elderly relatives about their suitability to continue driving and how to accept when its time to surrender a license.

Borisdaspide · 29/12/2019 17:18

Loads of 80 year olds ought to be thinking those consequences though. Because apparently they are either stupid, selfish or demented enough that they won't under any circumstances stop otherwise.

Huggybear16 · 29/12/2019 17:20

He obviously had no idea how to control that vehicle. He shouldn't have been driving. If he had killed my kid, I'd expect him to go to prison. If my grandparent killed someone in this way, I'd expect them to go to prison (my grandmother has sensibly decided that driving for her is no longer safe).

But also:
If he's too old to be prosecuted then he's too old to be getting behind the wheel

Tistheseason17 · 29/12/2019 17:29

just feel sad that he had been put through this

OP - your words are disgusting.

Jeanette Newman
This is the real victim and her family went through way worse at the hands of this 87 year old man who, if he was not well enough to go to prison, was not well enough to drive.

RIP Jeanette Newman and thoughts with her family. And to Sarah Taylor who had life changing injuries that she is STILL having to deal with.

These are the real victims - I'm not even naming the 87yr old who caused them and never said sorry.