Force 5 year old or not?

[Donkeykong2019]

My DD is 5. She has always been very anxious about new places and a nightmare in places like shops and supermarkets. Over the past few months she has increasingly been verbalising she just wants to stay home. Getting her to school is a daily battle. Anywhere where she doesn't know exactly what is there or what we are doing etc is a nightmare. Even getting out to parks now she is refusing. Weekend before Christmas I cancelled seeing Santa because she demanded all the details and didn't want to go and got v.upset

I'm constantly conflicted over whether or not I should be forcing her to go to them? Part of the problem is I'm on my own with two of them and she is a runner-off and she's getting too big for me to manhandle when she kicks off. Part of the problem is when we stay home all day and do nothing she is the calmest, most pleasant child and I hate how she flips when we have to go anywhere.

Half the family are criticising me for pandering to it all the day but I don't know what else to do?

Aibu to not be forcing her? She can't want to stay indoors forever right?

Definitely don't force her. Try very short outings that you can prepare her for beforehand as to exactly what will happen to hopefully increase her confidence. I would also be taking her to the GP as her behaviour does remind me of my ASD DS.

Ahhh bless her.

Please please please read about how ASD presents differently in women and girls! My Mum convinced health visitors I was fine aged 4.

Over the next 20 years I learnt when to laugh /smile /cry when expected so I could fake it but I could never really understand what was funny/sad and why. I sometimes got it wrong and offended and it made me feel isolated and disconnected.

Social difficulties that I was able to hide in school were not acceptable in the adult world and I lost numerous jobs, friends and got into risky relationships as a result. My life from 18-24 was a car crash, careering from one poor decision to another. At 24 I got an ASD diagnosis and now have a steady respectable job, a loving partner and am able to emotionally connect with with other people.

What seems a non issue at 5, may well turn out to be much more consequential at 15 or 20 so please get this investigated.

You need to do short predictable outings starting with places which are quiet. Very gradually try to extend or slightly change the outings. Not fair on your other DC (or you) to never go out - or indeed in the long run in your DC. In my experience with a child with severe anxiety, it’s a really hard balancing act between not forcing them and always giving in so building it up in their minds to be even worse than they originally thought. And access any help you can - we found CAMHS not interested (only enough resources for the most severe cases) but that school really helpful, with Ed psych guiding and suggesting ways we and school could help.

Well I've been looking at the tried of impairments and I'm fairly sure it's only the one she comes under. I think socially and communication wise she is fine

Please don’t dismiss something like ASD because she is social and can communicate. Autism can present in very subtle ways.

Sounds like the onset of social anxiety. I would personally book some time in with a child psychologist to see if that could help. You need to be careful re forcing her to do what she's not comfortable with but similarly you'd not be doing her any favours by letting her stay home all the time. Plus the repercussions on the other sibling....

Have you asked for a referral to a sensory integration qualified occupational therapist?

I have one like this. I think it's a mixture.

If you never force him to do anything he never does anything, and then things that are non-negotiable become a bigger issue.

What I do: Tell him if something is non-negotiable. Give lots of time to know about it, and promise a treatafterwards that they can focus on. For example there is something tomorrow. I told him at the start of the holidays, I reminded him before bedtime today and have promised a hot chocolate afterwards with a story.

At times I have given a choice. Once he's decided he has to go through with it. When he was 9yo, I said he had to do one thing after school. I gave him the choice of about 5 things, and said he had to try for a year.
He chose drama-because it was the closest one with only an hour class.
For a term and a half he moaned about going, panicking about it. Then he came out and asked if he could do another class too, and now he does 5 hours a week and complains when it's not on.

Something I think he'll like but he's not sure I'll say that he can say any time he wants to go and we'll go, but we have to go and see.

And other times we'll research into it. That might mean using Google maps to see the outside, or listening to a song they'll play or asking someone else about it.

If I never made him do anything, then he never would do anything. He'd feel the world out there is too scary and he can't do anything in it. It would make him feel there was good reason for being scared.
By giving him choices, he has some control.

I was the same as a child & was recently diagnosed ASD age 53. I would only play in the garden until I was about 14, hated playing in the street, hated going anywhere I didn't know, preferred my own company, was happiest in my bedroom with a book.

You’ve described my son who is autistic with extremely high anxiety. Not saying she’s autistic but she is certainly anxious and it’s worth considering if she has any other markers. Girls don’t always present the same as boys.

Sounds like social anxiety to me too.
My neurotypical dd from the age of about two, wanted to know where we were going/who would be there/when etc. She'd then give a little nod like a wise old woman as if to say 'this meets with my approval'. She never got anxious once at a place, but she needed to know in advance what she was letting herself in for I suppose.
I guess when they're very young, we don't tell them our plans, so we can effectively spring things on them.

Maybe try with a choice of three things. She's a very special lady who has a big decision to make. Shall we go to the poundshop to buy a toy/to Granny's house/to the park. She might feel more in control if she gets to make the decision herself.

Also my daughters autism started to get more obvious at this age and she is very sociable (she does make social mistakes though). She was diagnosed as moderate to severe autistic traits/behaviours at assessment but she has lots of friends and is creative etc. Girls present very differently and things like special interests and repetitive behaviours can be more subtle than in boys.

go back to GP, insist on help. do not minimise anything. tell them what its like on the worst day. ask for child specialist referral. say this affecting all of you at home. good luck.

Do you think there's a connection between the running off and the now reluctance to go out? How did you deal with the running off?

The thing about some posters saying “this sounds like social anxiety to me” is that, for a 5yo, social anxiety isn’t a diagnosis but a symptom of something bigger. And five year olds really shouldn’t be suffering from anxiety full stop (although I know lots do - trust me I have personal experience). So my advice, OP, is you resist the temptation to minimise (“it’s just anxiety”) and think of the bigger picture which is causing your DD such distress in her day to day life compared with her peers.

My DS1 was like this at that age. He doesn't have autism, but has many quirks and sensory issues that are similar.

Shops and supermarkets were the absolute worst. He struggled with any crowded or chaotic type places, cinemas, theatres, etc. It was clearly a sensory thing.

I avoided taking him to most of these, but did take him to smaller high street shops, libraries, coffee bars, restaurants. He could handle sitting in a coffee bar, provided we were on the edge of the room.

I did keep taking him into London, at quiet times, and I never made a huge deal about it. School took a similar approach, he sat at the edge of parties, was allowed to leave the classroom without question if he felt overwhelmed. Secondary school put in place counselling, and it was clearly on his transition notes, and they have treated him very carefully throughout his years there.

He's 16 years old, year 11 now. Confident, can handle most situations, did his own Christmas shopping, goes to teenage parties.

He still hates too much noise (18 relatives in a tiny house on boxing day - hell for him!) but he knows how to handle it socially.

Please please please read about how ASD presents differently in women and girls!

This absolutely

@Donkeykong2019 - I have a 7 year old daughter who, to look at, you wouldn't think has ASD. However, after her Adhd diagnosis, her paediatrician surprised us by saying she wanted to investigate her for ASD as there were a lot of traits there. She has her ADOS screening at the end of the month.

DD2 wouldn't jump out at anyone as autistic, especially in the widely understood sense of the condition. But the more I learn about girls and ASD, the more I can see where she fits perfectly. Her social interactions are dire, even though on the surface she is a very sociable child. She just doesn't maintain connections well at all.

Document everything. Get the SENCO at the school on board and if it helps, put it all in writing to them. DD2 goes into school ahead of her peers and does a job in the classroom - sensory circuits didn't help her at all. It allows her the much needed transition time to settle into the environment.

'reasonable adjustment' is my favourite phrase. I understand your school want to end the coming in and going at a different time. Part of this might be to establish whether it is a system which works for your daughter. Our school regularly have breaks from the routines they put in place so they can assess whether it is something which is worth continuing with or whether they need to put something different in place.

Part of the assessment process now seems to be putting parents on courses to improve parenting. Some people seem to really take offence at being told their parenting is lacking but there are a large number of children for whom this is the case. I admit, I was a bit put out when I was first told I 'had' to do X course or Y course. I felt relief when in discussion course leaders would tell me that if my child was behaving like A or B then it's not something that course would help with. I began treating them as a box ticking exercise until I was recommended one specifically for parenting children with additional needs. The laughable thing was I, as with the other parents on the course, were already doing many of the things recommended. But completing the course gave us a certificate we could show to prove we were taking an active part in trying to help our children. That course - stepping stones - is a door opener in our area for access to further help.

Once we had got all those out of the way, and had moved to an infinitely more supportive school, we started getting somewhere. But it has taken a very long time. We first raised concerns about our son when he was a year old, possibly even younger. But it took until he was nearly 8 to get a diagnosis which we call a 'working' diagnosis. We know there is more to it and now he is medicated for Adhd, his asd traits are coming out big time and school have referred him again for autism screening.

So don't give up. But understand that it really isn't an easy or quick process. Especially where girls are concerned. My best friend from school only got her ASD diagnosis as an adult in her mid 30's. Even though when we look back to our childhood, the signs were glaringly obvious.

My 5 year old DS has anxiety and some "ASD traits" according to the child psych we saw.

Her advice was baby steps, but that letting him opt out was likely to make him worse, as he would think there was a reason to be anxious if we let him off.

So can you go out each day but to the local shop or park and for short periods of tune only. Get her used to those places and happy to go there before adding a new one in?

Working through her anxiety will teach her that there was nothing to worry about.

And ask for the paeds referral if she can't manage a full day of school. X

Girls often do not appear to "fit" ASD profiles. Who suggested the shorter school day? If you are able could you try some of these places at less busy times such as early/late supermarket. Why did your parents insist you took her home again, that must have been stressful in itself.

It was a mix of me and the school that suggested the shorter school day. I'm not convinced moving her back to normal times is going to be a good idea as even though the anxiety was still there in the mornings on the adapted times, she wasn't being violent or getting hysterical for the first time in weeks. I suspect I will have the first morning where I will be able to get her in before she realises and it will all kick off again in the mornings so will be back to square one.

I get lots of conflicting "this is anxiety" to "she's just being controlling and you need to show you are in charge" so I have completely lost my confidence since she started school in knowing what is best for her

I’ve got an ASD boy and his verbal skills/vocabulary are off the scale!

Don’t listen to the judgments of well-meaning others. Continue to seek professional support

She is somewhat in the ASD process but I don't think she meets the social communication defeceit side of it!

I bet she does if you think about it hard enough! Girls tend to be very good at masking behaviour. In fact that could be at the bottom of her present anxiety.
When children are small they can act "weirdly" to a large extent, and no one bothers. Eg. running around their parents pretending to be trains.
However as they get older, that behaviour tends to conform. So the playground at nursery may be total chaos of children running around, with a few shyly clinging to their parents. However by Primary school there is much more conformity, with children if "running around" actually playing predefined games, skipping, football, Tag etc.
If your DD is struggling with social communication - then going to school may seem like being dropped in the middle of a rural market in India - utterly bewildering.

Her demands for exact details, are her attempts to gain control over the environment and prepare.

Go back to the GP/Doctors and attempt to push things on. Make sure her new symptoms are recorded.
Go and talk to the school - especially the SENCO and discuss your concerns that you will not be able to get her into school if she has to conform to start and end times. Get them to record any issues she has, and work with them on solutions. They can't tell you what to do, at the least your DD has anxiety needs and they need to work with these.

I wouldn't allow her just to stay indoors. But I would take baby steps. Quick trips to a shop at a quiet time, and only for a couple of "essentials" and be ready for a quick exit if necessary. Spend time in the garden. Walk to the end of the road and back, or try out a scooter or similar. Go to a woods where no one else will be. But make these brief, and don't involve people (like your Mum) who aren't going to be helpful.

And I'd keep some kind of diary, noting down things she struggles with and anything that works.
If you want a diagnosis, I'd go through those "checklists" and try to come up with something that fits each point - give yourself a couple of weeks at least to think of something.

I'd ignore anyone who says she is being manipulative - they don't have a clue!

No one behaves like that to get their own way - all behaviour is communication.

This is definitely anxiety which may or may not be part of ASS. Don't think about the Triad of impairments because it can be hard to see unless you are an experienced specialist my niece was very sociable at that age and is ASD. So much so that her psychiatrist wanted to video her as she was a "classic ASS girl in her responses" and he wanted to use her films to teach his students.

I would look at counselling for her, you maybe able to find a charity that helps if you find the prices too high locally. It's likely you'll get a student counsellor but depending on the training level some students are much more experienced than some qualified counsellor (some courses you can be qualified with hours experience hours 450 hours plus have a lot more taught hours and other requirements).

Definitely push to get a mental health assessment to look at ASD and anxiety support through NHS/school.