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People who think Margaret Thatcher was good...why?

221 replies

malificent7 · 15/12/2019 19:43

I have s tory froend who worshipd Margaret Thatcher and cried when she died...just why? Can anyone explain please?

OP posts:
OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 16/12/2019 09:11

I wouldn't say. Wouldn't ffs

CherryPavlova · 16/12/2019 09:12

A little girl who wasn’t exactly without privilege. Her father owned two shops and was mayor. She went to a grammar school and onto Oxford. Yes, Methodist work ethics but she certainly didn’t help other women up the ladder.
She definitely changed the British culture and not for the better. Each man in his castle mentality.

MsMellivora · 16/12/2019 09:24

I also remember the three day week, sugar shortage and shortages generally and all the rubbish in the car parks piling up. I was actually a trade union activist for many years and they really did some great work. But they also became so powerful as to be destructive and caused the backlash which enabled Thatcher to do what she did.

As a young girl growing up at a time where misogyny rode roughshod over all aspects of life and no one batted an eyelid. Having a woman become PM was exciting at the time. However anyone feels about her it was and still is an amazing achievement that she rose to the top spot in politics as a women.The Labour Party with its policies of all woman shortlists have still only had two women serve as acting interim leaders for short periods of time.

Putting actual politics aside as a young girl she made me feel as if women could really be something. I think it’s really difficult to truly explain how utterly terrible it was to be so totally looked down on by men back then. It was just much more accepted then.

SerenDippitty · 16/12/2019 09:32

Not in Scotland she wasn't. But that didnt matter.

Or Wales either.

Aroundtheworldin80moves · 16/12/2019 09:46

I wonder if she would be as well remembered if she had done the same but was a man?

Acciocats · 16/12/2019 09:59

@aroundtheworldin80moves
No of course it wouldn’t have had quite the same impact if she’d been a man. Unless you’ve lived through those times there cannot be as full as understanding of what it was like to be a woman and how sidelined woman were in the workplace, in politics, in every Aspect of life really. And of course it’s not perfect now but my god there it is far more normalised than it was that women can play important roles in society.

FWIW i don’t come from a privileged background at all, I was at a bog standard 70s comp, not a privileged grammar school like thatcher had been to. So although much was made of her ‘ordinary’ roots, she did in fact have a leg up denied to most: a grammar school education. And I can’t say I’ve ever had a good feeling about her as a person. But she did what needed doing for the country at that particular time. Should have then done a lot more in terms of regeneration, that’s the failing.

SquireOfGreenway · 16/12/2019 10:00

"...The problem wasn’t the decline of the coal industry per se - it was the lack of long term planning for communities built around an industry that would collapse. She literally left them to rot..."

Go back in time a couple of centuries or so. How did mining communities start off?

Coal was discovered in what was probably sparsely populated farm land. Some capitalist-banker types or local lord of the manor borrowed some money / issued shares / used inherited wealth to build a coal mine.

They would have had to attract people to come to the area and become miners by offering relatively high wages, tied cottages, etc. We can be sure that people migrated from afar to become miners and, over time, form what we now know as mining communities.

After many decades, the coal would become exhausted or the mine would become unprofitable for a number of reasons.

When this inevitably happens, why can't those former miners show the same entrepreneurial spirit of their ancestors? Why can't they "get on their bikes" and move elsewhere to find jobs? We can all do this (most of us have!); and join or form new communities where we find work.

I would suggest that most of the misery of former mining communities was actually created by well-intentioned but misguided socialist thinking. The socialist do-gooders created the feeling that it was up to the state to solve these miners' problems; when it is actually very difficult (or impossible) for the state to create long-term sustainable jobs in the areas of former mines. Unfortunately, many former miners were simply left to wallow in their own misery.

Spidey66 · 16/12/2019 10:03

As has been mentioned, the 3 day week happened under Tory watch and was nothing to do with Labour. It was already long gone by the time Thatcher got in.

slipperywhensparticus · 16/12/2019 10:14

The coal mines that were not making money got closed she managed that where others had failed she wasnt a fan of Europe or the channel tunnel and she bought her own iron into number ten I'm not a tory voter but I can see something she did right occasionally

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 16/12/2019 10:18

She did some good (most notably the single market) and some bad (failure to invest in new industry as old declined).

She was up against poor opposition in a militant infiltrated Labour Party and benefited from taking over after a chaotic period.

I'm not a great fan but think it insulting to compare her to Johnson. She was a proper, grown up politician.

Acciocats · 16/12/2019 10:21

@SquireOfGreenway very true

I remember being gobsmacked at the high wages miners earned in 70s/ early 80s. Not saying they didn’t deserve it because it was dirty, dangerous work. But I think it created a conflict of feeling: on the one hand no doubt many miners did not want their sons following them down the mines, but alongside that was a sense of entitlement for them to remain living in the same community, earning high wages regardless of whether there was viable industry to be worked in.

Thatcher resurrected the idea that people don’t have to Live and work in the same place their entire life and that their children don’t have an automatic ‘pass’ to follow in their footsteps. And yes that was painful for some, and I totally think thatcher should have invested in regenerating those communities and replacing the outdated industries with viable services and employment as far as possible. But I think it needed someone with her authority and decisiveness to break the hold that industries such as the miners had over the country. You cannot simply keep paying people high wages and provide them (and their children!) with jobs for life whether it’s profitable or not. Simple economics

peaceanddove · 16/12/2019 10:33

She stood up to the unions which had a stranglehold on the country. Coal mining in the UK had already had its day, was declining and unprofitable. Miners didn't have an intrinsic right to stay miners forever, regardless of whether they were needed or not. Same with the car industry. Time and economics move on. If someone else is doing it faster, better and cheaper elsewhere then the market shifts accordingly.

She was clear and direct in her message, and largely delivered what she promised. Some groups and areas did suffer, but overall the country improved massively under her governments. The needs of the many have to outweigh the needs of the few.

senua · 16/12/2019 10:35

I think she changed Britain from a country that cared about each other and supported each other to a selfish 'I'm alright Jack' nation.
An interesting choice of phrase. I presume that you have never seen the 1959 film called "I'm All Right Jack" which bashed the Unions and their selfish restrictive practices. It also bashed management, too. It knew that there are two sides to every story and nobody is as pure as the driven snow; not the Left and not the Right.
The only person who ultimately suffered in the film was the naive soul who threatened everyone's cosy, corrupted status quo.

Acciocats · 16/12/2019 10:39

it’s a misguided sentimental feeling that pre thatcher Britain was somewhere where everyone looked out for each other and everything was rosy. And that then everyone suddenly became selfish. She certainly put more onus on personal motivation, personal responsibility, agreed. But actually it’s pretty selfish to assume the ‘state’ will provide you with a job for life in the place you want to live regardless of whether that job is needed any more.

CharlottesPleb · 16/12/2019 10:43

revisionist apologists have recast that insult as a badge of honour.

Revisionist is an interesting word. People act like everyone hated her but the truth is closer to: most of the country supported her even through the Miners Strikes.

This was actually one of two major problems for the left back when it was full of patriotic hard-working people who gave a shiny shit about mining communities - things were going badly tits up and there was no way to stop it. Ultimately this led to all kinds of problems that the Labour party never really recovered from before its demise at the hands of momentum, and the country was deindustrialized anyway.

theunknownknown · 16/12/2019 10:50

got a generation of council house tenants into home ownership, encouraged ordinary people to become shareholders and have a stake in the country at last
Please tell me why this was a good thing? She sold off state assets. Assets that ordinary working people owned. They already had a stake in them.
Most ex council homes are in the hands of buy to let landlords. I personally think the selling off of council properties was a scandal.

Letseatgrandma · 16/12/2019 10:51

Most ex council homes are in the hands of buy to let landlords. I personally think the selling off of council properties was a scandal.

Completely agree.

Acciocats · 16/12/2019 10:53

I think selling off of social housing was scandalous... in London I know many former council tenants who bought their flats and now rent them out on air bnb at extortionate rates, having themselves moved out to the country.

ShinyGiratina · 16/12/2019 10:54

On balance, the country was in a better state by 1990 than it had been in 1979. Industry was modernising and our economic base was in a stronger position to see us through the 1990s and millenium as a result of seeing the writing on the wall for industries such as mining, steel and the traditional car industry. We fared better than European countries such as France (heavily unionised) and Germany (dealing with integration of the poorer, underinvested East Germany).

It absolutely was not all flowers and roses. I've worked in a variety of former pit towns in my county and while the pupils could often give a good rant about Margaret Thatcher with many valid points, they'd struggle to name the current Prime Minister. The toll is felt decades later from the loss of the dominant industry and its secondary effects on the local economy and the loss of the community. The less remote and better connected the community, the easier it has found it to diversify. Unfortunately education standards and social mobility tend to remain poor, still influenced by generations of reliable, decent work down the pits.

There was work to regenerate and gentrify obselete industrial areas, the London Docklands being an obvious example. Generally a good thing but again at a cost of fragmenting communities, pricing out local people and ghettoising poorer people into other neighbourhoods. Decentralisation from London occured, many government agencies spread through the country. Not enough to redress the difficulties of places further than 75 miles from the M25, but better than not.

The reality is that the traditional industries were dying a slow death since the post-war era. Margaret Thatcher's government made that hit faster and therefore stronger, but overall the UK became more competitive for a globalised world and in a better long term position.

Right to buy has been abused and for those who could not afford it, they have been left behind, but it did financially empower a significant proportion of the working class. Stronger caps on the ability to profit by selling on, and reinvestment in council housing stock would have had a broader benefit in society.

The fact is that she worked up from relatively modest beginings in a difficult climate for a woman, won 3 general elections and is still influential enough to be regularly, contenciously discussed 40 years after becoming PM and nearly 30 years after being ousted after a very long stint as leader. She was a great leader (NOT necessarily a synonym for good). I can understand people still considering her to be an enemy, but to not have any respect for her achievements is a folly.

It is always worth understanding your enemy and the reasons for their successes, it's a good safeguard from arrogence. That does not mean approval, and I think generally in politics that's a major reason behind our current political mire of the past decade. So many communities have just voiced their dissatisfaction about being overlooked and dismissed for decades with less than intutitive effects as they feel unrepresented by those who tradtionally claim to represent them.

Conservatism and Thatcher's brand of encouraging economic independence has a cross-class appeal. Even Tony Blair understood that to some extent.

Acciocats · 16/12/2019 10:57

It does make you think about that word ‘selfish’ though doesn’t it? I mean, I think selling off social housing was wrong. But I didn’t see many council tenants turning down the opportunity to make huge profit out of buying and then selling or renting out a few years down the line. Many of those former ‘salt of the earth council house tenants’ have been very happy to take advantage of market forces when it suits them: buy cheap, sell for a fat profit.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 16/12/2019 12:00

I don't think right to buy was necessarily wrong per se, but preventing councils building new social housing was.

In truth though right to buy was so popular in England that the Blair government refused point blank to allow the then Lab/Lib Holyrood coalition end it in Scotland (where ending right to buy was a popular policy across the political spectrum and where social housing was always more popular than south of the border, two thirds of Scots lived in social housing in its hey day) lest it upset middle England. It was only when the SNP took over that right to buy was ended for new builds/tenants.

Whatever you think of Blair he, like Thatcher, was a political heavyweight who knew how to keep voters onside. If he shied away from ending right to buy I'm inclined to think there was good reason for that.

HouseworkAvoider10 · 16/12/2019 12:02

She was awful.

sashh · 16/12/2019 12:21

She was PM for 11 years, so clearly very popular as she was re-elected.

By giving South Africans with a British ancestor the right to vote in UK elections and then supporting apartheid.

Acciocats · 16/12/2019 12:26

Arnold - true.

I think it’s very easy to see these things as a dichotomy: the poor working class people with socialist principles up against the rich capitalists. Of course the truth is much more complex. Social housing tenants were more than happy to buy up their council house at a knockdown price and make a massive profit. I bet individuals didn’t buy on principle, who believed no, this house should remain in state ownership, were pretty few and far between!

If we’re honest I think it’s human nature to intrinsically want to protect your own interests; to look after yourself and your own. And that doesn’t have to mean not caring about the rest of society; the two things aren’t mutually exclusive. I just think it’s disingenuous to claim that thatcher was all about selfishness when it’s actually a perfectly normal human trait to want to make life as good as it can be for oneself and ones family. It doesn’t mean she got everything right. But anyone who dismisses her as just promoting selfishness and ‘breaking’ the country clearly didn’t live through the pre thatcher years and see just how broken and selfish elements of society were then

peaceanddove · 16/12/2019 13:41

The salt of the Earth, hard working, community minded, working classes, renting their council homes, couldn't sign on the line fast enough to buy their own home. They were more than happy to buy them for a pittance and then sell/rent on for huge profits.

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