Irish racism in England

[angell84]

I am shocked. I am half English, half Irish. My Irish mum lived in England for a long time, gave birth to us children there with her English husband, and then moved back to Ireland.

The reason that she always gave me for returning to Ireland, was that, "she could not take the nastiness to her anymore". She described one incident of many to me: she went to my brother's primary teacher in England, and said that he had lost something, he must have been six at the time, and the teacher said to her , "sure what do you expect - he is half Irish".

I always thought of it in an abstract way, I never really understood what she meant. Until I spent quite a long time in the U.K this year.

I was absolutely shocked at the hatred and nastiness, and calling Irish people stupid.

How can it be possible? The U.K stole alot of Ireland's land, committed mass genocide during the famine, eradicated the Irish language,

And yet instead of apologising, many people are going around calling Irish people stupid.

Isn't it nearly unbelievable? It would be like a German going up to a Jew and calling them stupid. That it was their fault , thhat everything happened the way it did.

I am really shocked

The RUC was the direct descendant of the old RIC, the semi military police force that policed the entire island. It was in its culture and operations as far from Dixon of Dock Green as you could imagine.

The RIC were quasi-military, engaged in drills, were trained to use carbines and revolvers, were billeted and worked in housing and offices known as barracks, existed in numbers not warranted by the population or the level of criminal activity in most areas, officers tended to be from a far higher class than the men, and uniforms closely resembled those of rifle regiments of the Army. Their main function was to keep an ear and an eye out for insurrection and report on it, with maintaining order a minor role, and they became synonymous with oppression because of their role in enforcing eviction notices. They were supposed to partially live off the land, an arrangement that was bound to cause division, conflicts of interest and suspicion of favouritism within communities. They were rightly seen as the hands and eyes of the occupier, a 'gendarmerie'. At the time of the War of Independence the conflation of police and military was further developed when the Black and Tans' uniform was created from elements of the RIC uniform plus Army.

Hence by extension aversion to the RUC in the nationalist community in NI.

@Notaparent1, yes, your anecdote of encountering one disturbed individual on a bus absolutely counters entrenched historic and actual anti-Irish prejudice and ignorance. I’m so glad you shared.

Notaparent, usually when someone is ranting on a bus you can assume some sort of MH issue.

It's different from being called a Paddy or thick or violent or incomprehensible by your manager at work, or someone making a very obvious dog's dinner of your name just for the heck of it.

Or being told, 'You're all right. We know you. It's the rest of you we don't want here.'

Variations of this were experienced by my two uncles and one aunt who lived and worked in England from the late 50s/early 60s.

I am English and married an Irish men. It took a fair few years for his family to stop saying ‘it’s not your fault you’re English’ etc. They are generally a very liberal accepting family but they just never though of it as insulting. I think it’s a case of being so close that it’s ok. Like taking the piss out of friends and not realising that it’s getting old.

Didn’t realise it was this bad. The Irish people that I have met are all very well liked.

@Blondebombsite83 google irish times article "you can be absolutely anything you want to be in ireland, excpet English".

I used to tease an English woman I worked with about coming over here stealing our men. A joke! 100% joke. Then another English woman listenning didnt find it funny. Even though she wasnt married. So it couldnt even have been that she was offended by the joke's implication that her husband was v average.

There's a lot of racism towards travelers but other than that I dont know anyone with issues with Irish, where I live an awful lot of people have Irish heritage.

The welsh tend to get the worst of it although it's more 'banter' and gentle ribbing rather than straight up nastiness/racism. Everyone here seems to loves the Scots lol.

Oh god, this thread has struck such a chord with me for the opposite reason. I’m from the uk (but of Irish descent) and I’ve been living in ireland a long time now, can’t go home to the Uk as I have kids in school here. There’s a lot of anti English and racist sentiment here. It’s been particularly bad the last couple of years with Brexit. Can be difficult to open my mouth with my still-English accent. It’s obviously not all Irish, I hasten to add - but it’s quite ingrained here generally and I now wish I wasn’t bringing up my kids in that mind set, although most people are too polite to be openly aggressive. Due to the history taught, which is understandably taught the way it is (to a degree), it’s unavoidable that they will absorb that “anti” feeling. One of my kids has been abused at school for having an English mother sigh. Racism works both ways, my kids have even been that way towards the English on occasion which isn’t great. Sad to hear some Irish are getting it in the Uk. Aren’t we humans arseholes to each other sometimes!

Brexit has really dredged old grievances back up again. We had got to the point on both sides where we were EU friendly neighbours and now Brexit has thrown another briquette in the fire.

Brexism I call it.

You’re 100% right @AnFiadhRuaRua

There have been a few massively insensitive comments on Ireland by British government ministers that have revealed the truth of the argument that Ireland's problem wrt the UK is the shortness of the official British attention span and its strange inability to focus.

Isn’t it worth stopping to consider the irony of Irish people fighting over identity ?

Who benefits from us all fighting among ourselves, do you think? Aren’t we better than that?

There are so many people I know of mixed heritage in London who are not viewed so negatively by their parents home country - instead they are proud of them and see their migration as an essential part of the country’s history and economic development. That people cannot extract English politics of the past (1500s) from migratory experiences of the relative present (1950’s) onwards speaks volumes about them.

@mathanxiety I agree completely with you about stupid and offensive comments made by some ministers re Brexit but those ministers are routinely criticised in the U too for their gaffes, it is not restricted to the Irish community but rather comes from that general place of ignorance/or playing to an ignorant crowd.

Doesn’t make it right but I am sick of being on the end of the sharp lash for It.

We don’t treat you all as Healey Raes.

It's the 'general place of ignorance' and the fact that there is an ignorant gallery to play to that kinda stings, though, violinrosa.

And the fact that there is an audience in the UK that appreciates the comments that have been made causes hackles to rise.

math-A lot of scottish regiments were especially targetted, such as the Black Watch.

Not sure what you mean about the scottish empire bit. The Union is a 2 way agreement, Scotland wasnt colonised, they pushed for it.

Prejudice from the English towards the Irish definitely is still a thing in the UK. Maybe not as entrenched and systemic as during the "no blacks, no Irish" signs and earlier, but I have witnessed casual racism towards Irish travellers in the area where I live. It is depressing to think that we almost in 2020 and these kinds of attitudes still exist.

I am not even Irish myself (that I know of- do have some Jewish ancestry but not brought up in it) but I do get a bit cross with these "It's xenophobia/prejudice but not really racism if they're Irish" because even though the racism against them may not be as systemic and entrenched now as it used to be, in the past the Irish have been treated almost as bad as people of colour, and I do feel it is almost insulting to imply that prejudice agaisnt Irish (or Jewish) people is somehow not really as bad. Maybe it isn't as bad now, but it has been and I think all racism is wrong, whoever it is directed towards. Yes, I totally get there is nowadays a white privelege dynamic and to an extent that is truth, but let's face it- in England some white people are definitely treated better than others (eg those that are gentiles, or English, as opposed to Irish or Welsh or even Scottish in some parts of the UK)

Yeah that's what the British did for about 400 years: colonise, dehumanise, commit genocide and then, after all that...insult.

Not just Ireland. See also America, India, various African countries, Australia etc.

And it wasn't just the British. The Dutch, the Spanish and the French behaved similarly.

Perhaps if the Irish were further away and darker skinned you wouldn't be so surprised?

@furry. Yes, completely agree. The Irish travellers I think get it worst even from English travellers (there is prejudice there towards the Irish traveller community). There’s a hint of it too with recent attempts to separate out the Roma from Irish travellers and positioning them against each other (one as worthier than the other).

I hate it all and I wish we would all recognise that we are all on the same side and there are more of us than there are those who want division so why let them win?

There were very clear boundaries made across class and colour under NewLabour here that I think helped no one.

That would be round about the time Irish made up a third of the british army and colonial authorities, Ruffle. And atrocities were commited by Austalians and Americans who were also made up of huge numbers of Irish. It almost as if attaching morality to nationhood is ridiculous.

They didn't have much choice but to do whatever the press gangs made them do, Patroclus. That was the nature of British rule!

violinrosa yes! I think New Labour did not help with the divisions. I remember Tony Blair bangign on about making Britian multicultural. You can't make a country get on together. Forcing people to do so just causes more resentment.

Yes to the Roma Vs Irish thing too- I wonder if maybe because the Irish are not considered persons of colour (hope that phrase isn't offensive) and the Roma, as a group, (not all of them are even dark skinned but they still go back to Indian roots essentially, with a lot fo diluting and mixing in the other parts of the world they lived or live in) technically , i guess, may be considered "coloured", even if white passing? (although am not sure that is how they are seen. Just speculating).