Can't bury my mum, as nobody knows grave owner.

[NameChangedForTheDay]

Hi all,

Not a AIBU, but shamelessly posting for traffic.

My mum died in April. She always said that when she died, she wanted to be cremated and returned to Liverpool and be buried in the same plot as her own mother.

I spoke to the cemetery. I learn that there's actually six people in that plot, including my mum's grandmother and some of grandmother's maternal family.

The issue I have is the cemetery has no record of who owns the plot and I need their permission to inter my mum's ashes. All they could give me was the address of the last person buried there in 2000. Sadly nobody by that family name lives at that address any more.

So I contacted the council, but they don't own the cemetery and told me to contact the Catholic burials phone number. But they have no record of who owns the plot either.

They did give me the name of the funeral directors that did the burial in 2000, but the funeral directors don't have records that far back.

I've also posted on a FB group in the area where the chap who died in 2000 lived, appealing for any of his family to come forward. So far, no replies.

Has anyone had this situation, or similar?

Is there anything else I can try?

My mum and I really didn't get on and weren't talking when she died due to alcoholism, but I do want to fulfill her final wish still.

You know what OP RevengeOfTheReindeer
has a point, you can do this with a council owned grave not sure about Catholic.

Not sure if anyone has suggested this yet - given there are so many family members already in there could you check a website like ancestry.co.uk and see if any relatives of anyone buried there are registered? It might help you trace someone with some knowledge.

I think this might help too. I don't know if you saw my PM OP, but I have access to these databases if you would like me to see what I can find out.

I'm in the US so this may not apply. My Dad's family plot was presumably purchased by my great-grandfather in the late 1800s, at least his was the first burial in the plot. The last burial in it was in the late 1960s (my uncle) and there is one plot left which a cousin wished to 'reserve' for his own use. Any paperwork was long lost, so the cemetery required him to provide proof of descent from our grandfather as well as having all the cousins sign documents that we didn't want the plot for our own use.

Could you prove descent from your grandmother or perhaps the person who was first interred in the plot? Would that help?

I promised my Mum when she passed away that I would place her ashes in my Grandmothers grave also in Liverpool. We were given two options. Option 1was if we wanted Mum's ashes buried in a box in the grave and her details to be recorded along with others in the plot then we had to pay something like £120, this would ensure that if for some reason the grave ever had to be disturbed then they would be careful to keep the box intact etc and return it to the grave. This option would have to take place on a weekday when a cemetary worker would be available to dig hole/witness. Option 2 was dig a small hole ourselves and place the ashes in either in a container or just pour them in to the hole. If we placed them in a container there would be no guarantee that should the grave be disturbed in the future the container would either not get damaged or even be returned. We went with option 2 as we wanted to do it on the Sunday which was Mothers Day and we decided against using a container as there's no real guarantee that it wouldn't end up damaged or lost should the grave ever be disturbed. We know Mum isn't listed on the cemetary records but that doesn't matter to us, she's with her parents and some of her siblings which is what she wanted. We did get a little marble flower vase with her name and date of birth on that sits on the plinth at the bottom of the headstone.

It was the Roman Catholic cematary too, as I recall just trying to get someone to answer the phone was a pain.

Ancestry.co.uk is a great idea.

The parish priest may be willing to say some prayers with you, or perform some sort of simple service. Ask him what he advises and see what he says, you never know. Some priests don't care much about paperwork(or err on the side of compassion) and others are much more strict. Failing that, I would absolutely just bury the ashes myself.
You can have a plaque made with your mum's details on, it doesn't have to be on the headstone. In a Catholic cemetery, one extra plaque amongst all the ones from Lourdes or whatever won't even be noticed. I understand the need to have her grave marked even if your relationship was troubled.

I can’t offer any more advice than you’ve already had, but I’m in Liverpool so if you need someone to do anything face to face or even just scope out the cemetery I’m happy to help if you can’t easily get here.

We had a distant cousin whose relatives had their ashes interred in the "family" plot in our childhood village with my great grandparents and grandparents. There was enough room for 2 more sets of ashes, which my mum and uncle have earmarked for themselves and been very verbal about to the entire family.

Mum was given no notification of any of this in spite of technically owning the plot, and was absolutely furious that the Vicar agreed to this with no contact. And was so indignant that she was threatening to dig them back up at one point

Whole thing seems to be a legal minefield.

Sorry for your loss OP

@ChristmasCroissant no obituary for the man, but just looked and possibly one for his wife two years ago. It may not be, as it's a common name.

But I'm waiting on FD that dealt with that lady's funeral to come back to me as they will have those records still. It was the same FD that did the one in 2000, of her possible husband in the family plot.

You can get onto ancestry.co.uk for free usually at your local library if you're not a paid up member. The site familysearch.org is free, it's very good too and they will often be able to liknk you to other sites. The problem with these is that they may not be totally up to date.

I'd just go and discreetly scatter the ashes there. That's what my parents did years ago when they wanted to add my grandmother's ashes to my grandfather's grave. They took their gardening tools in the boot of the car along with the ashes container, pottered around the grave weeding it and tidying it up. Then they scattered the ashes, dug them in and added a small plant and some fresh flowers to decorate the plot. It really isn't that unusual, as people want to avoid the often considerable costs of paying to have it done using the official channels.

Nobody noticed my parents and they certainly weren't the only ones there to tend a grave. Nobody challenged them. They also contacted the stone mason a few weeks later and had the headstone inscription amended, making clear that from X date it was also in memory of my grandmother.

@ActualHornist thank you for that offer.

@saker, thank you too. I've replied.

If the Funeral Directors don't have records back that far, do they know what stonemason might have been used for the name addition?

Honestly just go and do it, no one will even notice if your subtle enough and it won't hurt anyone.

1. See if you can find a Will for the person who died in 2000. www.gov.uk/search-will-probate. Send for a copy. The Will will name executors, who should have some knowledge of the burial.

1. If there's no Will, ask someone with an Ancestry account to look up the death and then go to www.gro.gov.uk and spend £11 on a copy of the death certificate. That will tell you who notified the registrar of the death, which could be another lead.

1. Death notices from the local paper are often online these days. That's worth a punt too.

You have my sympathy. I had a similar issue in that our family grave actually belonged to my great great grandmother who died intestate in 1929 and I had to prove my entitlement when I came to bury my mother.

Shout out on local Facebook groups. I regularly see posts on ours - trying to track a chilhood friend or old relative with no more info than "Her name was Margaret and the house was either 37 or 47 and they had a labrador". Usually successful too.

You need to contact the cemetery owner. Then I would take proof by way of birth and death certificates that your mum is your grandmothers daughter, they should have evidence she is buried there. My only concern would be are the other six buried, or cremated remains. Normally in a plot you would get a max of six cremated remains. You should be able to sign an indemnity to indemnify the cemetery owner against future issues if others of the same family did not want this to happen and take the matter to court, you would have to pay all costs

Don’t just scatter ashes, if you are found t, and most large cemeteries are checked daily, you will be in trouble

I have found some information and PMed it to you :)

We have a family plot set up by great grandfather, goodness knows how we would prove it now. I think discreetly digging a hole and putting the ashes in there would be fine. We have a friend who wants his ashes scattered at sea, he did want us to burn his boat viking style and all. I think that is going too far. We will scatter his ashes but under the radar so to speak.

Have you checked the nearest large library? When I was trying to find my gf's grave, we couldn't find any details from the church but the nearest reference library had archived lots of documents relating to graveyards. I searched round about the date of death to find the burial record which gave me the lair details. Then I used this website to find the lair record. The website is run by the mormons but for some reason they have digitised lots of UK burial records. I was able to go back and see my granny's signature on the original lair receipt and how much she'd paid for it! From your pov, the lair record should show who last asked for it to be opened.

Also, although a stonemason would want proof of lair ownership to edit an existing stone, we didn't need proof of ownership to put up a new stone. We spoke to the cemetery staff explained what had happened, ordered a stone online and put it up ourselves.

But it will all feel a bit flat, no service, no stone, 20 people looking dodgy while fulfilling her wishes

What about having a little memorial get-together, perhaps with a celebrant who could say a few nice words. No need for them all to go to the cemetery. Then you could go along with the ashes and a little trowel, and put the ashes into the soil above the grave.

Thanks for all the great ideas. @saker managed to find the records for the last person buried in there and now I'm able to order a death certificate and see who registered the death.