Can't bury my mum, as nobody knows grave owner.

[NameChangedForTheDay]

Hi all,

Not a AIBU, but shamelessly posting for traffic.

My mum died in April. She always said that when she died, she wanted to be cremated and returned to Liverpool and be buried in the same plot as her own mother.

I spoke to the cemetery. I learn that there's actually six people in that plot, including my mum's grandmother and some of grandmother's maternal family.

The issue I have is the cemetery has no record of who owns the plot and I need their permission to inter my mum's ashes. All they could give me was the address of the last person buried there in 2000. Sadly nobody by that family name lives at that address any more.

So I contacted the council, but they don't own the cemetery and told me to contact the Catholic burials phone number. But they have no record of who owns the plot either.

They did give me the name of the funeral directors that did the burial in 2000, but the funeral directors don't have records that far back.

I've also posted on a FB group in the area where the chap who died in 2000 lived, appealing for any of his family to come forward. So far, no replies.

Has anyone had this situation, or similar?

Is there anything else I can try?

My mum and I really didn't get on and weren't talking when she died due to alcoholism, but I do want to fulfill her final wish still.

[Emelene]

I hope the lead works out for you OP.

[DoesntLeftoverTurkeySoupDragOn]

It's amazing what information you can find out like this :)

[Dontsweatthelittlestuff]

Hope your new leads work out for you op.

And on the issue of scattering ashes at sea which a few people seem to think is illegal it is NOT. The only time you can’t scatter is if the river is privately owned then you need the owners permission otherwise you are free to scatter without licence or any legality to overcome. In fact I know of at least two firms on the south coast who hire out boats for sea internments.

[ChristmasCroissant]

I hope you sort it out, OP - sounds a promising lead!

[NameChangedForTheDay]

Thanks @Toddlerteaplease, see my last update. I might have found my family. Turns out last person buried there was my mum's uncle.

[Toddlerteaplease]

Apparently there is a cemetery department. I searched on the Archdiocese's website and it came up under he finance office. But the lady who runs works part time.

[NameChangedForTheDay]

UPDATE!!!

With Saker's help, I found out who the last person buried in the plot was married to. I managed to get enough information to order his death certificate online.

In the meantime, I found his wife's obituary via Google, one of her granddaughters had an unusual name. I found the granddaughter on Facebook and she's pretty sure I'm referring to her grandad. She was only three when he died. But said her uncle took over her granddad's house and she's sure it's the address I gave.

She's speaking to her mum shortly to find out for sure.

Oh and they live in New Zealand!! They moved there three years after her grandad died.

Looks promising. Thanks so much for your help. Especially Saker who made me feel like I was in an episode of Who Do You Think You Are?

[NameChangedForTheDay]

Thank you @Toddlerteaplease

[Toddlerteaplease]

I've asked the Archbishop if he knows who'd have record like that.@NameChangedForTheDay

[NameChangedForTheDay]

Thanks for all the great ideas. @saker managed to find the records for the last person buried in there and now I'm able to order a death certificate and see who registered the death.

[ShippingNews]

But it will all feel a bit flat, no service, no stone, 20 people looking dodgy while fulfilling her wishes

What about having a little memorial get-together, perhaps with a celebrant who could say a few nice words. No need for them all to go to the cemetery. Then you could go along with the ashes and a little trowel, and put the ashes into the soil above the grave.

[YouSawThePlans]

Also, although a stonemason would want proof of lair ownership to edit an existing stone, we didn't need proof of ownership to put up a new stone. We spoke to the cemetery staff explained what had happened, ordered a stone online and put it up ourselves.

[YouSawThePlans]

Have you checked the nearest large library? When I was trying to find my gf's grave, we couldn't find any details from the church but the nearest reference library had archived lots of documents relating to graveyards. I searched round about the date of death to find the burial record which gave me the lair details. Then I used this website to find the lair record. The website is run by the mormons but for some reason they have digitised lots of UK burial records. I was able to go back and see my granny's signature on the original lair receipt and how much she'd paid for it! From your pov, the lair record should show who last asked for it to be opened.

[justasking111]

We have a family plot set up by great grandfather, goodness knows how we would prove it now. I think discreetly digging a hole and putting the ashes in there would be fine. We have a friend who wants his ashes scattered at sea, he did want us to burn his boat viking style and all. I think that is going too far. We will scatter his ashes but under the radar so to speak.

[Saker]

I have found some information and PMed it to you :)

[Chloemol]

You need to contact the cemetery owner. Then I would take proof by way of birth and death certificates that your mum is your grandmothers daughter, they should have evidence she is buried there. My only concern would be are the other six buried, or cremated remains. Normally in a plot you would get a max of six cremated remains. You should be able to sign an indemnity to indemnify the cemetery owner against future issues if others of the same family did not want this to happen and take the matter to court, you would have to pay all costs

Don’t just scatter ashes, if you are found t, and most large cemeteries are checked daily, you will be in trouble

[PineappleDanish]

Shout out on local Facebook groups. I regularly see posts on ours - trying to track a chilhood friend or old relative with no more info than "Her name was Margaret and the house was either 37 or 47 and they had a labrador". Usually successful too.

[NaToth]

1. See if you can find a Will for the person who died in 2000. www.gov.uk/search-will-probate. Send for a copy. The Will will name executors, who should have some knowledge of the burial.

1. If there's no Will, ask someone with an Ancestry account to look up the death and then go to //www.gro.gov.uk and spend £11 on a copy of the death certificate. That will tell you who notified the registrar of the death, which could be another lead.

1. Death notices from the local paper are often online these days. That's worth a punt too.

You have my sympathy. I had a similar issue in that our family grave actually belonged to my great great grandmother who died intestate in 1929 and I had to prove my entitlement when I came to bury my mother.

[Ariadnepersephonecloud]

Honestly just go and do it, no one will even notice if your subtle enough and it won't hurt anyone.

[DoesntLeftoverTurkeySoupDragOn]

If the Funeral Directors don't have records back that far, do they know what stonemason might have been used for the name addition?

[NameChangedForTheDay]

@ActualHornist thank you for that offer.

@saker, thank you too. I've replied.

[Topseyt]

I'd just go and discreetly scatter the ashes there. That's what my parents did years ago when they wanted to add my grandmother's ashes to my grandfather's grave. They took their gardening tools in the boot of the car along with the ashes container, pottered around the grave weeding it and tidying it up. Then they scattered the ashes, dug them in and added a small plant and some fresh flowers to decorate the plot. It really isn't that unusual, as people want to avoid the often considerable costs of paying to have it done using the official channels.

Nobody noticed my parents and they certainly weren't the only ones there to tend a grave. Nobody challenged them. They also contacted the stone mason a few weeks later and had the headstone inscription amended, making clear that from X date it was also in memory of my grandmother.

[tillytrotter1]

You can get onto ancestry.co.uk for free usually at your local library if you're not a paid up member. The site familysearch.org is free, it's very good too and they will often be able to liknk you to other sites. The problem with these is that they may not be totally up to date.

[NameChangedForTheDay]

@ChristmasCroissant no obituary for the man, but just looked and possibly one for his wife two years ago. It may not be, as it's a common name.

But I'm waiting on FD that dealt with that lady's funeral to come back to me as they will have those records still. It was the same FD that did the one in 2000, of her possible husband in the family plot.