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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Budget cuts and horrific news stories - AIBU?

44 replies

SinkGirl · 07/12/2019 09:03

Switched on the BBC news at 10 last night (I’m normally in bed by then!)

First story was Johnson and Corbyn’s debate, lots of clips of them talking about funding cuts, NHS, police etc.

Next story was the horrific story of the man released from prison by mistake who went on the most horrific rampage of violence, rape and kidnapping until he was caught. The details of the story showed that the system had failed twice - once by not recalling him to prison, then by releasing him without being reviewed by the parole board as was stipulated in his sentence. The story also revealed that where he lives they are currently short 100 probation officers. His victims included a young brother and sister and their mother, right up to a woman in her 70s. It’s honestly one of the most disturbing cases I’ve ever heard. Apparently when he was arrested he told police “if you’d caught me after the first two, none of the rest of this would have happened”.

The next story was about the horrific case of the teenager who threw a young boy from the Tate Modern viewing platform. Until I watched this I didn’t realise that the teenager had planned this in advance and had done so in order that he could be on the news and talk about the lack of treatment he’s received for his autism, mental health issues and personality disorder. It’s one of the most horrific crimes I can think of, by a young man who is obviously extremely disturbed - where was the intervention he so clearly needed, not only for himself but to protect others? I have twin toddlers with ASD and I know from experience that they’d have no diagnosis and no support without me fighting for every single speck of it. The perpetrator was under the care of the local authority. Local authorities are billions in deficit, which is only increasing. The NHS is painfully under-funded.

I see this and I see the tragic consequences for society of budget cuts to criminal justice, health and social care. I believe in personal responsibility - these men are 100% responsible for their crimes. But the criminal justice system’s primary function is to protect society from criminals. The purpose of funding support for people with severe mental illness that can lead to violence (which is obviously a small subsection of mental illness) is not just to help that person, but to protect society from those who are a danger.

Obviously this is just one day’s worth of news, but these aren’t isolated incidents.

AIBU to think that properly funded services could prevent some cases like this? That actually it’s not just the person who doesn’t receive the service who’s at risk as a result, but all of us? Or so others not see that connection or not think it’s a factor?

OP posts:
AutumnRose1 · 07/12/2019 09:09

Prisoner released by mistake sounds like a cover story

Especially given how the public feel about violent prisoners being released, which seems to be a lot different to how the parole board feel.

If it was a human error - how many people dealt with that without spotting it? - then money won’t change anything.

I’m not convinced that funds are being put to good use anyway so I don’t want to throw more money at these problems.

AutumnRose1 · 07/12/2019 09:12

I can’t recall the detail of the Tate Modern incident, did he slip his carers or was he allowed out alone? Again, more money, he could still have slipped out.

Mate of mine just retired from the prison service, very early, and frankly there are jobs that people won’t do unless there’s a dramatic change in attitude for how those jobs are for the people actually doing them.

DowntownAbby · 07/12/2019 09:14

YABU.

If you want money thrown at it, vote Labour.

But I would suggest you take a long, hard look at their criminal justice policy first.

SinkGirl · 07/12/2019 09:19

It’s not a cover story. Read the details. There were a series of errors, despite the courts best efforts to ensure that this extremely dangerous man didn’t get out unless it was safe for him to do so (which would probably be never, let’s be frank)

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-50676721

More money may not be the issue when we have a government who have no qualms about cutting funding for these services, that’s true. It’s not throwing more money at it that’s the full solution - reform and proper funding are needed.

There is no mention anywhere that Bravery had a carer with him at all. So if he did it’s not being reported as far as I can see, unless you’ve seen different?

OP posts:
AutumnRose1 · 07/12/2019 09:20

Just looking at the info about the Tate case

He slipped two carers. He was being looked after as far as I can see.

I think there’s a belief that people can be fixed, or very easily manipulated. See radicalisation and deradicalisation.

The optimists are ruining everything!

Sparklybaublefest · 07/12/2019 09:22

read the papers, read further into the news op

AutumnRose1 · 07/12/2019 09:23

X post
That’s the same info I saw about McCann

How would more money have helped?

takeittogo · 07/12/2019 09:23

I actually think to equate such horrific crimes and lay them at the door of the government is downright goady.

SinkGirl · 07/12/2019 09:23

But I would suggest you take a long, hard look at their criminal justice policy first.

At no point did i say that money was the whole solution, but a government who doesn’t deprioritise these services is just as crucial as funding them.

On what basis do you believe I’m being unreasonable? You’re saying you don’t think that funding cuts and staff shortages have any role in these and other incidents? The Met Police Chief would disagree:
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/05/met-police-chief-cressida-dick-violent-knife-crime-officer-cuts-linked

OP posts:
takeittogo · 07/12/2019 09:27

I don’t for a second believe funding cuts lead someone to throw a child to his death, Sink, no. So sue me, I think that’s absolute bullshit.

SinkGirl · 07/12/2019 09:28

read the papers, read further into the news op

I do read the news - in what respect do I need to read further? Surely people denying the link between criminal justice failures directly relating to one of these men, the funding cuts that make these failures more likely, and what happened when he got out of prison in error is an example of not “reading further”?

takeittogo the Home Editor on the BBC news last night directly linked the McCann case to budget cuts and under staffing. Is he goady too?

OP posts:
takeittogo · 07/12/2019 09:30

Yes but what you are saying is that it caused the crime itself, Madeleine McCann was not kidnapped because the Tories were in power Confused (even though they weren’t at the time.)

AutumnRose1 · 07/12/2019 09:30

OP more police, absolutely! The cuts were insane.

But the examples you gave in your OP were a lot different.

AutumnRose1 · 07/12/2019 09:31

“ the Home Editor on the BBC news last night directly linked the McCann case to budget cuts and under staffing. Is he goady too?”

OMFG. That sounds bonkers.

Dontdisturbmenow · 07/12/2019 09:33

I see this and I see the tragic consequences for society of budget cuts to criminal justice, health and social care

But you shouldn't. You are making assumptions about a whole society status based on two sensational news stories, that have been used as examples to drive votes.

For these two cases that you've heard about, there are 100s that are as if not more horrific than these. There were there 50 years, 20 years, 5 years ago regardless of the governement.

This doesn't mean that it should be ignored, just don't build your whole belief of a very complex and long established system based on such stories. There are many much more reliable mean to get a better idea of the state of our legal, education, health system than watching the news, especially at the time of elections.

CowCat · 07/12/2019 09:34

Op, I agree. YANBU.

I was reading this article earlier on the impact of austerity cuts.

It's from the NY Times.

www.nytimes.com/2019/02/24/world/europe/britain-austerity-may-budget.html

SinkGirl · 07/12/2019 09:34

You don’t think that property funded effective services, early intervention etc can make a difference?

There are lots of scientific journals, studies, presentations etc which disagree:

researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/POST-PN-0599/POST-PN-0599.pdf

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK488196/

childandfamilypolicy.duke.edu/news/curb-violent-tendencies-start-young/

OP posts:
EntropyRising · 07/12/2019 09:35

takeittogo the Home Editor on the BBC news last night directly linked the McCann case to budget cuts and under staffing. Is he goady too?

Sounds like the BBC just being the BBC.

duckyolucky · 07/12/2019 09:36

Money helps in terms of employing more staff & building/managing more facilities. However I think there is a huge issue with low sentences, negligence or organisational failures that lead to those getting released when they shouldn't be. This has be going on a low time but just couldn't more attention

Over 30 killers killed again after being freed from prison between 2000/1 and 2010/11, statistics show.
Figures released by the Home Office show 29 people with homicide convictions went on to commit murder and six went on to commit manslaughter.
Of those 29 murderers, 13 previously committed murder and 16 manslaughter.

264 sexual predators released from prison over the past five years went on to strike again.

Last year (2018) alone five people every month fell prey to violent criminals already convicted of rape

SinkGirl · 07/12/2019 09:39

Yes but what you are saying is that it caused the crime itself

Please point out where I said that. That’s not what I said.

I said that underfunded and understaffed public services are failing us, and those failures have direct consequences. McCann could not have committed those crimes if he hadn’t been released in error.

Studies show that proper early intervention and ongoing support for those with severe mental illness can reduce instances of violent crime.

OMFG. That sounds bonkers

How? There was a string of systemic failures which led to this man being released from prison when he should not have been. He immediately went on an horrifc rampage which didn’t stop until he was caught. How do you think it’s bonkers to link the two?

OP posts:
AutumnRose1 · 07/12/2019 09:39

“ However I think there is a huge issue with low sentences, negligence or organisational failures that lead to those getting released when they shouldn't be. ”

This. Sadiq Khan had to step in with the John Warboys case. FFS.

SyrilSneer · 07/12/2019 09:39

Not Madeleine McCann FFS. Joseph McCann, the person the thread is discussing.

CherryPavlova · 07/12/2019 09:39

I am with you OP. Not necessarily about the two crimes you mention but about cuts to services such as youth services, early years, mental health support services that identify and plan care for the most vulnerable, policing, residential care and special education.

Of course good services make a difference.

SinkGirl · 07/12/2019 09:39

Sounds like the BBC just being the BBC.

You have got to be kidding me.

OP posts:
AutumnRose1 · 07/12/2019 09:40

“ There was a string of systemic failures which led to this man being released from prison when he should not have been.”

And you think more money and more staff along the chain would have helped? I don’t know.

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