To risk her harming my baby?

[northernnamechange]

Hi, I really need some impartial advice as I am driving myself crazy wondering whether I am doing the right thing. I have name changed as I am active on the conception boards and I wouldn’t like the two to be linked.
To begin I am married with an 18 month old baby boy. DS had a difficult start in life and needed life saving surgery to survive (maybe relevant)
I am from a very close family and we all see each other daily at my DM’s house. I have a sister who has a daughter aged 8 (DN). DSis is a single Mum. Nieces Dad has been in prison for a violent crime (again, maybe relevant) and although my DSis is officially no longer with him they are very on/off and he does have unsupervised access to my niece for the odd weekend here and there.
My son and my niece are the only Grandchildren on my parents side. My niece was the only grandchild for almost 7 years and understandably received much of the attention (as she deserves!) DH and I have a great relationship with DN.
Niece has understandably been jealous since DS came along (crying that the baby gets more attention then her etc) but lately it has ramped up.
A few weeks ago DH quietly sat me down and explained he was a bit worried about how my niece was looking at/behaving around our son. DH couldn’t put his finger on it but asked me to be careful and not leave them alone together. He mentioned a few occasions where our boy had been crying due to an accident and it happened to be on the odd occasion niece and son had been left alone together (think 2 mins whilst taking a phone call) I agreed that even though I trusted my niece that we couldn’t be too careful and that I would keep an eye on this too. I didn’t repeat this conversation to anyone.
This week, whilst playing with my niece and my son, my niece told me she has thoughts about hurting my son (her words exactly). She says she doesn’t want these thoughts and she can’t get them out of her head. At this point I called DM into the room so she too could hear the conversation. I was scared but asked my niece to elaborate further. As she looked at my son she then proceeded to tell me how she wanted pull away his back legs so his head went into the glass (he was cruising along a small glass topped table) She was very serious when saying this, this was no joke.
What followed was me getting upset and going home and telling DH when he finished work. DH and I agreed that we should take this as a warning and decrease the time that the cousins spend together. We are not saying that my niece will definitely harm my son but even if there was a 1% chance she could hurt him we need to take action and not let this happen. We didn’t feel it was normal for an 8 year old to have such thoughts.
I explained this to my DM and Dsis. In the beginning they understood my concerns and my sister said she would talk to a friends Mum who used to work in psychology (long retired) to get some advice.
It’s since this conversation with friends mum that things have all got a bit strained. Friends Mum has told my sister that my niece having/vocalising these thoughts is

1. Mature of her
2. Completely normal and that kids say all kinds of things and have said worse. She also said my husband I overreacted and that I was wrong to get upset in front of my niece.

Since this discussion DM and DSis are certain there is no problem and are 100% sure (their words) that my niece will not hurt my son and I am being silly. DM feels that my niece may have come across a violent video on YouTube and just wanted to repeat what she saw. Another thought was that she had been exposed to violence at her Dads and it was on her mind. I’ve explained that the reason why my niece said those things isn’t my main worry right now, my main worry is my sons safety. I explained I didn’t want my son around my niece for a little while whilst I gathered my thoughts. I also said that in the future I want a grown-up with them whilst they are in the same room together (if I’m not there). I have explained that whilst they may feel 100% certain that my niece wouldn’t harm my son that I am not so certain and that no one can ever be 100% certain about another’s mind/actions. There come-back is that she is only 8 and it’s not as-if she said she wants to ‘kill’ him. I replied that hurting a baby could easily lead to killing a baby.

Since then I have been called all sorts. I have been called a bad mum for keeping my son away from them (it's been 3 days) I’ve been told that I am exaggerating this for attention and that I am breaking up a once happy family. They have said that I am being OTT/overprotective because of my sons difficult start in life. DSis is the ring leader with the insults and my Mum agrees with her. DH has tried to invite my DM over for a chat about this but it it got very heated and now DM is angry with DH too.
I am still hurt and confused as to why my niece would say these things and now I have to deal with the abuse from my mum and sister. I just have this strong feeling in my gut that something isn’t right and I just want to protect my son.
Who’s right here?

What a horrible situation to be in. It's probably really scary right now, but she'll hopefully grow out of it in a few years. When DD was 8, she was always violent towards others, especially little kids. Thankfully there weren't any young children in the family that she saw except for her sister (2 years younger) until she was almost 13, by which time she'd grown out of it. She's almost 15 now, and it's so lovely watching her play with her cousins (5 & 2). I think a lot of it is that kids have their own way of doing things, and when someone else (for example, a baby) doesn't cooperate, they can get angry. Hoping your son and niece have a good relationship when they're older

Thank you again to everyone for your responses. I have read through them carefully and I agree with you all. To the poster that said my niece must be terrified of her own thoughts... that really broke my heart, but I think you are right. My poor niece.
And thank you to the poster who sent the link for my sister.
I now have the confidence to continue with mine and DHs stance in keeping our son safe and supervising contact with my family. We will be keeping our distance for a while though while emotions calm down.

Now I need to gain enough confidence to explain to my DSis and DM that I really think my niece needs help. She is not a happy child. We love her so much and just want her to be happy. I just know the abuse I will get from them unfortunately. Sorry to ask again, but any advice on how to approach this with DSis and DM? Thank you again x

BTW OP, I am seriously beginning to question your sister’s underlying jealousy of your situation with DH & baby as well. Compare her family and yours. She is seriously projecting her own feelings (behaviourally, not verbally, because she is not being honest at all.) I think her kid is in serious trouble psychologically and your mum is doing nobody any favors by minimizing this or apologizing for your sister’s life mistakes.

Anyone suggesting someone's child could do with some help, no matter how well-intentioned, is likely to find their advice rejected, often in quite an aggressive way.

Have a look on this thread in AIBU 'Wrong to discuss concerns with LO's Mum' I can't get any MN link to work right now, only getting the Oops page, so perhaps you'll need to search the thread title to find it. www.mumsnet.com/TalkTalk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3742243-Wrong-to-discuss-concerns-with-LOs-mum

You are absolutely right to protect your child, there's no doubt about that, however, in what circumstance would a child of 8 be left alone with a baby? I would have thought your niece would only be in the baby's presence with adult supervision.

Your niece would appear to be jealous, I don't necessarily think it follows she poses a physical threat to her cousin, but I do understand your concerns. Is she experiencing intrusive thoughts or is she rambling nonsense? No one on here can answer!

I think your family's reaction is unfair but equally I can't help but feel sorry for your niece; If she in fact needs "help" I hope she receives it.

It sounds as if they won’t listen to you if you do tell them your niece needs help. I think you will make an already strained relationship worse. All your sister will hear is that you think her child is defective. Is there aMy way you can involve your niece and help her instead?

You could encourage her to spend time with you, your dh and the baby so that you supervise her. Talk to her about how important she is and how much you love her. How fantastic it is for your ds to have a big cousin to look after him. Maybe in this way you could teach her what it is that is great about her.

What your dn is looking for is reassurance and guidance that she’s still the precious and special child she was before. She’s seeking the adults to react how they were before your ds came alone. The aunty / uncle you were before you had your ds. The grandma etc.

I know what I’m suggesting is counter intuitive. However I don’t in any way think you’re dn is a psychopath as someone intimated upthread. Psychopaths don’t get horrified at such intrusive thoughts because of the way their brain is wired - they literally don’t have the capacity. Your dn otoh sounds horrified and very compassionate, which makes me think you could perhaps help her to get past this seeing as her ignorant mother and grandmother are unwilling.

Someone who"worked in psychology years ago", and would assess a child without seeing then is causing harm, and I have a hard time believing they should be trusted for an opinion. You also have NO idea what your sister said to them as she would obviously be giving a version filtered by her own feelings.

You're doing the right thing. Whatever is going on, your child is your priority.

You OP did the right thing by telling your sis about her daughter's words/thoughts.

You are continuing to do the right thing by protecting your son from his cousin.

No one can know 100% that someone won't hurt someone else, especially with kids who are still learning how to relate and behave.

I really wonder how keen your mum or sis would be to be left alone with someone 3 times their size who had already said they wanted to hurt them!

PS I think you are the only one thinking about your niece too.

Your mum and your sister sound like selfish bitches. Why do you even want them in your life?

Mumsnet is full of people bending over backwards to accommodate arseholes just because they are family. I find it baffling. Just get rid.

Your family is unhealthily close.

Your mum and sister do not have well developed boundaries. If they did, they would see that the DN needs protection every bit as much as your DS does. If she did something to your toddler it would destroy her life. Her grandmother and mother owe her protection, and intervention to get to the bottom of her thoughts. Instead they have circled the wagons and tried to crush you and DH with a concerted campaign of accusations.

Niece has understandably been jealous since DS came along (crying that the baby gets more attention then her etc) but lately it has ramped up.

This is not understandable or normal. Many children this age might sulk a bit privately about the attention, but the vast majority would get over it with guidance from responsible adults, take pride in helping out with their little cousin, with the adults taking it upon themselves to integrate the baby into the extended family in a healthy way and make sure the DN was still appreciated for herself, and loved.

You need to get to the bottom of why your family is so enmeshed, how the lack of healthy boundaries affects everyone in it, and how two children are effectively left unprotected and unsupported emotionally, psychologically and physically.

I would consider calling your DN's school to talk to the safeguarding officer about DN's situation wrt her father's absence due to doing time, presence in her life right now, possible worries the DN may have about herself given her father's crime, blase attitude of your sister about violent content on YouTube DN may have accessed, and the lack of emotional support given her at home.

You would definitely be risking a permanent rift with your family, but maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing.

You are doing the right thing, I also suggest that you never leave your child with either your mother or anyone who is likely to have your niece with them as it can almost be guaranteed that as they don't believe there is a danger they will not be vigilant at all.

Keeping them apart is in the best interests of both children. You are doing the right thing. Yes, it may upset family harmony for a bit, but not a gazillionth as much as if she harmed him!

Don't ever be afraid to say you are erring on the side of caution in the interests of both children. Say it calmly and repeatedly as often as need be. You don't need to say anything else.

And getting help for your niece is outside your control. Her school, rightly, will not engage with you. Her issues are not your responsibility. You have done all you can; now respect the boundaries.

Currently pregnant and entering a very similar situation. Nephew slightly younger but already been very jealous and vocal about how he doesn’t want a cousin (currently only GC and had an emotionally difficult little life so far).

My husband and I have already agreed that we wouldn’t leave him alone with our baby and I can’t imagine this changing as they get older as DN is very boisterous (polite word for it!) and as much as I love him, I don’t trust him - he’s the sort of boy who will attempt to kick the dog for no reason when he thinks no one is looking!!!

OP I don’t think you’re overreacting at all and should absolutely trust your instinct. I think parents/other family members can be a bit blind to some behaviours and ultimately it’s only up to you to protect your child. If something were to happen and you’d had these feelings it would be awful.

NearlyGranny
You are right that the school will not engage with op. But if she has a genuine safeguarding concern, she can pass it on. The school will make a note and investigate as they find appropriate but will not feed anything back.

I did this when I had a concern about a child, who was crying out for help online. I know the parents a little but couldn’t guarantee they would be able to sort the situation out as their behaviour and decisions were part of the problem.

The reason I have said op should consider continuing contact with her dn is because her dn has recognised op as a safe adult, who can help. She divulged this information to her aunt, not her mother for a reason.

Go with your gut

You are doing the right thing

I think you've done the right thing. She vocised quite a bit of anger but I also understand how she feels.

My dd1 is 6 and until this time last year she was the only grandchild. A year ago nephew was born and in Feb her baby sister.

She hates their cousin! She's never hurt him or said anything like that, but she doesn't ever want him around and won't play with him.

It's weird as she is the opposite with her sister. Utterly adores her.

I think she just struggled seeing her grandparents suddenly spend all their time with a new baby. When we all visited, they just want to hold the baby (a year on and this still happens) and that must be so hard when you've been their world for so long.

Op the first thing that stood out for me is that you go to your DMs house every day...that alone is overly enmeshed in your families life.

Take a deep breath, this shall pass, step back, see them less but be warm and friendly when you do, whilst, NEVER letting your Ds oput of your sight for a moment.
Take him to the loo with you, to make a cup of tea etc.

Your poor D niece should be firmly but kindly, challenged on the jealous behavior, it is neither healthy nor normal.

She does need professional help with her thoughts...

110% you did the right thing.

I think your Dsis is lying RE the psychologist. No Psyc would advise like that unless there was a clinical examination, especially when the safety of a child is involved.

I would be worried as pp has said about him spending time with your DM on the off chance she orchestrates time alone with your DN in order to 'prove you wrong'. On a cost/benefit analysis, you follow your gut they don't get unsupervised time together and both are protected- that can change or you follow on with DM/dsis and something does happen? That can't be changed.

I'm very cynical that this person who was sought out for advice was someone qualified to give it.
'Working in psychology' does not equal being a psychologist. You also used the term psychiatrist in a later post. This is a completely different role/job to a psychologist.
You could also be a psychiatrist or a psychologist and have minimal knowledge of child psychology and behaviour.

I can't believe a professional (even retired) would put such an opinion to a potential safeguarding issue. Yes kids (like everyone) can have intrusive violent thoughts. But the circumstances are ringing a bit of an alarm given possible exposure to violent Dad, her difficulty managing her jealousy of your son and your suspicions that she may have been physical with him on a couple of occasions. There is no way anyone could say if there is a risk or not without assessing your niece, and no one worth their salt would say otherwise. It makes me think that either she is totally unqualified to give an opinion, or what she said has been taken out of context or both.

It's understandable that your family feel defensive that their daughter/GD could be capable of hurting another child in the family. But their response seems overly aggressive.

I didn’t read your post but based on only your title, my advice would be to NEVER take chances with your baby’s safety. NEVER EVER.