To risk her harming my baby?

[northernnamechange]

Hi, I really need some impartial advice as I am driving myself crazy wondering whether I am doing the right thing. I have name changed as I am active on the conception boards and I wouldn’t like the two to be linked.
To begin I am married with an 18 month old baby boy. DS had a difficult start in life and needed life saving surgery to survive (maybe relevant)
I am from a very close family and we all see each other daily at my DM’s house. I have a sister who has a daughter aged 8 (DN). DSis is a single Mum. Nieces Dad has been in prison for a violent crime (again, maybe relevant) and although my DSis is officially no longer with him they are very on/off and he does have unsupervised access to my niece for the odd weekend here and there.
My son and my niece are the only Grandchildren on my parents side. My niece was the only grandchild for almost 7 years and understandably received much of the attention (as she deserves!) DH and I have a great relationship with DN.
Niece has understandably been jealous since DS came along (crying that the baby gets more attention then her etc) but lately it has ramped up.
A few weeks ago DH quietly sat me down and explained he was a bit worried about how my niece was looking at/behaving around our son. DH couldn’t put his finger on it but asked me to be careful and not leave them alone together. He mentioned a few occasions where our boy had been crying due to an accident and it happened to be on the odd occasion niece and son had been left alone together (think 2 mins whilst taking a phone call) I agreed that even though I trusted my niece that we couldn’t be too careful and that I would keep an eye on this too. I didn’t repeat this conversation to anyone.
This week, whilst playing with my niece and my son, my niece told me she has thoughts about hurting my son (her words exactly). She says she doesn’t want these thoughts and she can’t get them out of her head. At this point I called DM into the room so she too could hear the conversation. I was scared but asked my niece to elaborate further. As she looked at my son she then proceeded to tell me how she wanted pull away his back legs so his head went into the glass (he was cruising along a small glass topped table) She was very serious when saying this, this was no joke.
What followed was me getting upset and going home and telling DH when he finished work. DH and I agreed that we should take this as a warning and decrease the time that the cousins spend together. We are not saying that my niece will definitely harm my son but even if there was a 1% chance she could hurt him we need to take action and not let this happen. We didn’t feel it was normal for an 8 year old to have such thoughts.
I explained this to my DM and Dsis. In the beginning they understood my concerns and my sister said she would talk to a friends Mum who used to work in psychology (long retired) to get some advice.
It’s since this conversation with friends mum that things have all got a bit strained. Friends Mum has told my sister that my niece having/vocalising these thoughts is

1. Mature of her
2. Completely normal and that kids say all kinds of things and have said worse. She also said my husband I overreacted and that I was wrong to get upset in front of my niece.

Since this discussion DM and DSis are certain there is no problem and are 100% sure (their words) that my niece will not hurt my son and I am being silly. DM feels that my niece may have come across a violent video on YouTube and just wanted to repeat what she saw. Another thought was that she had been exposed to violence at her Dads and it was on her mind. I’ve explained that the reason why my niece said those things isn’t my main worry right now, my main worry is my sons safety. I explained I didn’t want my son around my niece for a little while whilst I gathered my thoughts. I also said that in the future I want a grown-up with them whilst they are in the same room together (if I’m not there). I have explained that whilst they may feel 100% certain that my niece wouldn’t harm my son that I am not so certain and that no one can ever be 100% certain about another’s mind/actions. There come-back is that she is only 8 and it’s not as-if she said she wants to ‘kill’ him. I replied that hurting a baby could easily lead to killing a baby.

Since then I have been called all sorts. I have been called a bad mum for keeping my son away from them (it's been 3 days) I’ve been told that I am exaggerating this for attention and that I am breaking up a once happy family. They have said that I am being OTT/overprotective because of my sons difficult start in life. DSis is the ring leader with the insults and my Mum agrees with her. DH has tried to invite my DM over for a chat about this but it it got very heated and now DM is angry with DH too.
I am still hurt and confused as to why my niece would say these things and now I have to deal with the abuse from my mum and sister. I just have this strong feeling in my gut that something isn’t right and I just want to protect my son.
Who’s right here?

Oh and by the way, our nephew used to make fists at our child and said he hated him when he was a baby.

As a result, we kept our distance for a long time. There were no direct threats of violence either, unlike your niece but that that was enough for me to not want to be around him.

If he'd said he wanted to smash my child's face into a coffee table I'd never have seen him again.

I can't see anything particularly mature or enlightened about saying such things. I find it very disturbing to be honest.

I definitely agree- dont leave them together alone at all.
D niece needs perhaps closer attention and counselling- the thoughts and detail of them has not come from nowhere, she is dealing with some internal turmoil.

You are doing the right thing keep your baby away from your niece so not let her be unsupervised with your baby

Do you know if this chat with psychologist actually took place? And if yes, is it possible sis could have minimised what she said?

Op, your sis and DM are not as invested in your dc"s safety as you are. If something happens to your ds (God forbid), they will grieve but move on. It's your life that will fall part. Don't lower your guard based on their comfort level.

Adults are not always rational. My aunt used to turn a blind eye to her dd bullying me and hitting when she babysat me, because she didn't along with my mum. Not the same I know, but it measn you can't assume your family will always have your dc's interest at heart.

Goodness this is worrying. Definitely keep away. If this was my eight year old I’d be frantic not making light of it.
Your absolutely doing the right thing.

I agree with @Selfsettling3 Your DN has expressed that she needs support and it would be completely unfair on both children to continue putting them in dangerous situations. If something happened it would have traumatic consequences for your DN too.

Lots of good advice on this thread. Trust your instincts and never leave them unsupervised again. I think it would be worth explaining in simple terms to your DN that she did the right thing in telling you how she felt, and the grown ups will help by always being there. Whether you trust your DSis or DM to be the responsible adult is another matter.

I don't think you're being unreasonable but I do think kids of that age, and particularly those who have seen trauma, do get ideas in their head but many are smart enough not to vocalise them if that makes sense. DD at a similar age would often cry at bedtime because her head kept making her wish things that she didn't want to happen. She was freaked out by it and wouldn't accept she has control over her thoughts and actions. I think that would have been my follow up at time but it's gone far enough now that you don't really have a choice but to step back and supervise contact

I think you’re right to remove yourselves from the situation for a bit but I also think your dsis and dm are failing your niece here.

I wouldn’t think it’s super rare for children to have bad thoughts but I do think it’s doing them a disservice and brush them off. Somebody needs to be talking to her openly about these thoughts and steering her away from any impulses she might have to act on them. It’s too much to knowingly leave to a child to process on their own.

You are protecting both children by not leaving them unsupervised together.

Thank you so much for your replies. It sounds silly but they are giving me the confidence to stick to my guns and keep my son safe.

In answer to a couple of questions, the only person who would look after my son apart from myself and DH would be DM. However, she has thinks I am unreasonable to request she keeps and eye on DS and DN when they are together as she is 'certain' DN would never hurt DS. So unfortunately my DM will not be able to babysit my son in the future.

No, there is no way to know that the chat with psychiatrist friend actually happened but my sister has got this information from somewhere so I honestly don’t know. If it did happen then ‘psychiatrist’ should hang her head in shame.

To the poster who asked about my family dynamic with my DM and DSis. I honestly have no idea why my sister feels that she can insult me in that way. I think she tries to bring me down as naturally I am a happy person and she is quite the opposite. I think my Mum sides with her as Dsis needs the support (she’s younger (29!) bad life choices, no money etc) I try not to take it personally but yeah, it’s not nice and it does hurt.

And I agree with all those saying my niece needs professional help/was asking adults for help. Sadly it’s not my decision and I know if I mention this I will be vilified even more. It’s such a shit situation.

Thank you to those who shared similar situations also.

Similar to what other users have said- you're doing the right thing.

To put it bluntly- your priority and duty of care is to your son. So you need to do whatever you and your husband deem necessary to keep him safe and from harm. Both of you are on the same page regarding this, so it isn't a case of one parent over-reacting. Stick together on it, parent cohesively and remain true to what you think is right for your son, and his safety.

Unfortunately, that is all you can control. You can't control whether your DM or DSis take these thoughts/words seriously. They should, as PP have said, be taking DNiece to a GP to help her through whatever it is she's going through at the minute (if it's a MH issue that needs explored). If not, they need to investigate and see if she is seeing something she shouldn't be (safeguarding issue). Or, simply, helping her through her jealousy and helping her to understand that she doesn't rule the roost anymore.

Continue to keep your son safe. If your DNiece does have something wrong, then there will be more warning signs, and hopefully DSis and DM will take it seriously this time. However, the most important thing is you keep your son safe.

It probably sounds like a selfish way to be, but you can't solve everyone's problems for them. Just keep your own little family safe and happy, and let the rest wash over you :)

YANBU - I wold have done the same. The worry is the DN says she would like to stop having these thoughts which confirms it was not a one-off and would continue to happen.

I would actually have a chat with your health visitor to put your mind at rest as having a professional tell you the same may give you some confidence in the matter.

I’m sorry your family are reacting like this & im even more sorry your niece is going through this.

Given the way it’s going, I would involve social services. The child needs help & if that upsets the adults, so be it.

But no way woukd DS be left with any of them, not even with DM when DN isn’t due to visit or baby sitting in our home because id no longer trust her to keep him safe.

Sounds like you live in each other’s pockets too much. Branch out and let your DSis deal with raising her own child.

Yes you are definitely right I would never leave them alone together . Ever.

I think you're doing the right thing safeguarding your child. Whilst it is normal for a child to feel pushed out and jealous of a new sibling/ cousin, what your dn has expressed is quite extreme. She obviously feels very threatened by your son. Your family absolutely need to take it seriously.

However given that you are a close family and unless you are willing to shut down contact then I think you should continue to see dn, but short bursts and always supervised and with more structured activities. If this is the route you want to take then you all need to work on dn feeling less frightened/ threatened if you want a relationship long term. To completely break contact will make it worse if you reinstate it at a later date as dn may blame your ds even more.

I would agree with previous poster that this child needs some support to manage her feelings. Would your dsis be willing to talk to school to see if they can offer support- play therapy/ counselling? Otherwise GP. I know that there are charities out there that offer support to children who have/ have had parents in prison. Perhaps something like this would help. Her anger appears to be directed against your son but could be underpinned by lots of other things.

www.barnardos.org.uk/what-we-do/helping-families/children-with-a-parent-in-prison

I would agree that DN is having intrusive thoughts, which are worth investigating for her own mental health. It’s not that she’d act on them, necessarily, it’s that they’re not nice for her to live with.

And yes, if the other adults in your life are not willing to supervise him, then they shouldn’t be allowed to look after your baby. I’m so sorry, that’s rubbish for you at a time when you need support

Easiest YANBU ever.

Follow your instinct and protect your baby. Your niece certainly needs a professional counseling evaluation (NOT retired mum of a friend who doesn't know the child).

You are totally and utterly 100% not being unreasonable here. If your Dsis has allowed her own child around violence and let her see violence, who does she think she is to decide what is best for a child? It's her child that is coming out with these things and no, it's not normal. Yes kids say things but they don't tend to have violent thoughts and want to physically hurt their cousins. Don't listen to anyone that is on/off with someone that has been in prison for a serious crime, her judgement is rubbish and so is your mums for backing her up

That poor little girl must be terrified, intrusive thoughts are scary for anyone let alone a little girl. It very possibly could be something that she would never, ever act upon but equally it is very sensible not to leave them alone together. I personally wouldn't leave an 8 year old and a toddler together alone even without those thoughts just in case there was the temptation to pick up the toddler which could lead to an accident, but you are definitely doing the right thing in light of the circumstances. I do think that they should be allowed to see each other (with supervision obviously) because I don't think it's fair to punish your niece over something that she was asking for help with (I don't think that's what you are doing but it may be how she sees it).
It may not have been the 'correct' thing to do to let your niece see you get upset but that is a totally natural reaction to have. You are not a psychiatrist who is removed from the situation - this was a shocking comment regarding your son so of course you got upset. Your mum and sister should be looking at the interests of both children, as well as looking into why your niece might be having these very scary thoughts and trying to help her with them.

I agree when you say your neice was asking for help, saying she found the thoughts disturbing.

As to not leaving your son with her unaccompanied- you're not wrong. Better safe than sorry xxxx

I don't think you are being unreasonable at all. If you'd said your niece would never see your baby as long as they lived then maybe...but all you've said is they need to be supervised at all times which is really sensible.

The child psychologist might be right. All kids experience jealous streaks and are capable of violence. The more she can verbalise it and explore her feelings, then it may be that the less likely she is to action them. BUT she would need to actually see her, and even then it's a professional opinion not a cast iron guarantee, and also presumably the adults in your nieces life would need to be advised on how to respond to this (I'm guessing show empathy, something like yes it is annoying when babies take all the grown ups attention isn't it, rather than don't be daft kind if thing).
Is there anyone you can speak to eg social worker to get an independent professional opinion?

In the mean time I'd just reiterate you're not breaking the family up or wanting to stop family events merely supervising your baby which should really be done anyway at that age. They are the ones screaming and shouting and accusing.

What a horrible situation for you. I have a DS aged 8. He is the sweetest, most gentle child around babies. I can’t imagine him ever expressing a wish to hurt them. Your niece could very well be be a victim of her circumstances to feel this way. That is sad but not your responsibility. You need to step up and not allow her anywhere near your DS unsupervised. You and DH are the only people in the world responsible for his safety.
You must stand strong against your mum and sister. The way they have acted is unbelievable!
Step back now and keep a distance.
How will you feel is you bow to their pressure and harm comes to him?

You are right to stop them being alone together.

I agree it is mature of your niece to speak to you, I would take that as a cry for help to be honest.

She doesn't want to feel this way and being a child she needs help to understand how she feels and how to deal with it. It should be taken as an opportunity to support and help her, not separate them completely. But you are right to say they shouldn't be alone together.

As well as risk to your son, I imagine if your niece did really hurt your son or the worst were to happen she would also have to live with it for the rest of her life.