To think continuing with a pregnancy is just as valid a choice as ending it?

[JingleAtSoftPlay]

Even if, on paper, having an abortion is the logical choice?

I have been on MN a long time. Recently-this last year or two, perhaps- I've noticed a bit of a change in how women who post about their unplanned pregnancies are advised.

When I was first on MN, it was very much a case of "your body, your choice, but the decision has to be yours". Now women are being advised - often in quite strident terms- that if the situation isn't ideal, not only should they terminate, but the implication is that they'd be selfish and cruel if they did not, what would they be thinking, having another baby.

I'm pro choice, I have campaigned for abortion rights, and I myself have had an unplanned pregnancy. This isn't about pro life/pro choice. However, one of the phrases I've often used towards pro life activists is "Pro choice doesn't equal pro abortion", and actually, I've read a few threads in recent months where I've felt some posters have in fact veered into pro abortion territory, they've been so intent on castigating the OP for her contraceptive failure and insisting that ending the pregnancy is the only fair and logical choice.

AIBU to think this is missing the point? It's almost as though it's somehow abnormal or silly for a woman to hold any sort of emotion towards her pregnancy, regardless of what her eventual decision is. A woman who, for example, is skint and who has not enough bedrooms per child in her house is just as entitled to continue a pregnancy as any other woman, even though on paper it isn't ideal. Because if she feels strongly that she can't terminate, that's up to her. She shouldn't be thought of as foolish or selfish for that, no more than a woman who chooses an abortion should be judged.

You can't take the emotions out of pregnancy, and nor should you, even if those emotions seem irrational to onlookers. I do wonder if this is a result of austerity and decisions such as the child tax credit limit- women's pregnancies and their children have been reduced down to a financial choice, and are treated with the accompanying hard headed, cold sense. All well and good when the matter is purely financial, but not something that should be applied to women's reproductive choices either way

Of course it is a valid choice and I would never tell somebody that abortion is the only logical option.

BUT, as a divorced mother, on a low wage, living in a private rented flat, and knowing how hard it all is, there's no way I personally would have another baby in this situation. It would severely impact the quality of mine and DS's life and I could not do that to DS.

Before I had DS I always said I could never have an abortion. Knowing what I know now my view has changed and if I found out I was pregnant tomorrow then I would.

I've recently posted about this exact issue in pregnancy choices. Because it's a fairly quiet board I only got 3 responses but luckily they were all supportive. I was too scared to post in AIBU because ive seen similar threads where a lot of the "advice" goes way past offering a different perspective and becomes quite personal and nasty. I think sometimes a few posters forget that amongst all the tolls and made up threads there are real women asking for help. It's possible to be honest without being unkind

I absolutely agree. I feel like on Mumsnet if the OP isn’t married and doesn’t own their own home and steady career, theyre advised to abort with some posters really taking it too far to the point where they’re almost telling the OP that they’d be doing the wrong thing morally by having the baby. Others make out like having a baby is SO hard, almost impossible, and that they definitely wouldn’t be able to cope. I think that it’s really immoral and awful. Mumsnet is such a weird place - so open minded about some stuff and so narrow minded and overly traditional on other stuff. I had my first in an untraditional scenario - not been together with my (now) DH long, living abroad, no family nearby, and less than ideal financial situation due to recent travels - and while it took a little figuring out, it’s absolutely the best thing I’ve ever done and I’ve just gone on to have my second. I am positive that if I’d have asked for advice on Mumsnet about whether I should abort or not I’d have been told that I should and almost guilted into it like so many other posters, or made to feel like I’d not be able to cope or told that now DH probably wouldn’t stick around as it hasn’t been long or whatever. I’m now SO happy and everything has been so easy and lovely that I’m so glad I didn’t ask advice on here as it would have terrified me and made me feel like shit!

I haven't seen anyone recommend an abortion purely because there was a contraceptive failure, this is entirely silly. How the child was conceived is irrelevant to the parents' ability to parent in the best interests of the child.

YABU because one's ability to parent is important in the decision to bring a child to life. A parent who doesn't have the mental resilience, or doesn't have the financial means to support a child, or doesn't have the time and support to bring up a child, would be irresponsible to have a child. I am not saying that women should be forced to have abortions (for the hard of reading), I am saying that the choice to become a parent when you cannot be a good parent is one that we can judge the person for and advise the person against. A parent's first duty is to the well-being of their child not to themselves.

I think people need to also remember that guilt doesn't always come with abortion. I had one aged 16, I have absolutely no guilt or regret and, truth be told, the sense of relief I felt was so strong I felt happy afterwards

I’ve fallen pregnant in less than ideal financial circumstances but you find a way to manage and life is constantly changing - sometimes improving, sometimes not - but I don’t think a choice should always be made solely around finances. Everyone’s situation is different, including support networks etc. Nobody can see the future.

My 13yo daughter was discouraged from having children by her Geography teacher yesterday. To save the planet. She was told it was hard work and bad for body etc. That they can have better careers etc. Maybe to a point that’s true, but I feel that discussions like this are constantly promoting economics over human relationships and families.

I agree op, I've seen too many threads where the poster was clear a termination was not for them but been told they were wrong/must have an abortion. I also remember a couple of threads where a poster is the mother of a young pregnant girl or her boyfriend and has been encouraged to insist on an abortion.

I worked in termination of pregnancy services. For the vast majority of women the termination is absolutely the right decision. Many grieve the pregnancy to various degrees while knowing it was the right thing, others just feel relieved. I feel passionate that no one should continue a pregnancy they didn't want. However, like everyone else I know working in the field, I'm equally passionate about it being the woman's decision because we've seen what happens when someone is coerced into a termination they don't want.

The case that stays with me is the 15 year old girl (she was 30 when I met her) who desperately wanted to keep the pregnancy but was absolutely forced into it by her parents. She pretty much tanked her life after that, refused to go to school, left with no qualifications, ended up in a very abusive relationship, repeat suicide attempts, heavy drug use and multiple terminations (changed some details and it's not a unique story). I am sure her parents meant well and wanted her to have the best chance in life, but they had ignored how strongly she felt and got it catastrophically wrong.

It is such a difficult decision, it has to be up to the individual.

Economics over human relationships. Yes, that's how I see it.

It's like SAHMs. I have never been a SAHM. I have never wanted to be a SAHM. Yet I've never thought it a particularly strange or startling concept that some women may wish to stay at home with their children. These days though, that's difficult if not impossible for many women, and those who do manage have the "living off your husband, what about work" comments.

I do feel the UK is becoming a bit of a monoculture that fetishizes work. I've had two different careers in my time, and both have gone from fairly normal hours to massive amounts of unpaid overtime being expected, to prove one's dedication to the job.

Tumbleweed101, I totally agree. Then when our population drops we bring in immigrants to make it up, who traditionally have really big families and even when in the UK have at least three children. So the 'don't have children' for environmental brigade can do one.

OP I've seen the threads that you are talking about. Sometimes a woman has posted for advice on her relationship and posters have told her to abort. The usual list is, because, she's under 30!, renting or in a low wage job. One poster even said that those without university educations shouldn't have children. Other's think any form of family benefits shouldn't exist.

There's a, lot of messed up people about by MC parents. Those from WC families it usually is other factors, not just being poor.

There's many a post on here by women trapped by high earnering abusive/neglectful husbands, who should never have had children.

The MN usual tick box just doesn't work out well in RL.

Sorry, that was a bit off topic, but I do think it feeds into the same thing

I think people need to also remember that guilt doesn't always come with abortion. I had one aged 16, I have absolutely no guilt or regret and, truth be told, the sense of relief I felt was so strong I felt happy afterwards

Same here. I already had children and then had an unplanned pregnancy. I had been on the injection to avoid pregnancy, youngest DC was less than a year old, DH's work were making redundancies and his department was one of those under review, one of our DC was being assessed for ASD, and all in all it was completely the wrong thing for our family to add another baby to the mix particularly as I have rough pregnancies and I couldn't face being out of action for months on end. So I ended the pregnancy and felt nothing but relief. I've had miscarriages and if I think about them I feel a little bit sad, a little pang of "what if?", but when I think about my termination I don't feel that. I went on to add to my family since then, this included a second unplanned pregnancy while on the pill and using condoms but the timing and circumstances were better so I continued the pregnancy. My family is complete now and I can't support another pregnancy physically or financially so I know if I ever did get pregnant now I'd choose to end it, DH had the snip though so very little chance of having to make that choice.

Abortion rates for younger women are falling and rate for older women are rising, the women statistically most likely to have an abortion are married and already have children.

I just think it is sad that some people are so worried about societal pressures that they could abort a child purely due to financial worries. It will work out because a loving, selfless parent would ensure it would. There are plenty of services that if needed can be used. The pressure of ‘keeping up withe the Joneses’ gets to too many people and these ideas and opinions should not be imposed onto other people.

For people to put money above love is in my opinion disgusting. That is the true selfish element: that raising the baby will be tough because you’ll have to make sacrifices and therefore your life will be made difficult. Some people can deal with their own lives being difficult as long as their baby is loved and happy.

You either fit a baby around your life or your baby fits into yours - that is the real Debate which should be had surrounding abortion, never money.

YABU because people have come on here specifically asking for advice about what they should do. It would be pretty pointless if everyone just posted "well it's your choice". The poster knows that, which is why they want help making that choice.

If anything I find abortion threads unusually pro life, unusual because it seems more conservative leaning than the rest of the board. "You'll never regret a child" is a common phrase. I guess those posters have never looked in active threads, where there is nearly always at least one "I regret having children" thread going.

I agree. I've felt a bit sickened by how strongly some posters have tried to convince vulnerable and scared women to have an abortion because its 'what they would do in their situation'. Some getting quite aggressive and manipulative with it.

I think we should all steer firmly away from telling other women what they should do with their pregnancies.

I just think it is sad that some people are so worried about societal pressures that they could abort a child purely due to financial worries. It will work out because a loving, selfless parent would ensure it would. There are plenty of services that if needed can be used.

I completely disagree.

Saying that a loving, selfless parent would ensure it works out is naive, at best. There are plenty of loving, selfless parents who are doing their best to make ends meet and simply cannot no matter how many sacrifices they make or how much love they scatter around the place. Love and sacrifice is not enough to make sure it works out.

These services tou speak of are being cut to the bone, the benefits system is punitive and difficult to navigate, there is not enough support out there.

For people to put money above love is in my opinion disgusting.

Financially supporting s child is as important as emotionally and physically supporting it. You don't have to be rolling in it but if you're currently struggling or currently just managing and an additional person in thr household is going to be the tipping point then finances absolutely need to factor into any decision.

That is the true selfish element: that raising the baby will be tough because you’ll have to make sacrifices and therefore your life will be made difficult. Some people can deal with their own lives being difficult as long as their baby is loved and happy.

And some people can't. It is not selfish to choose to end a pregnancy for any reason, that is what choice means - having the choice to continue or the choice to end, free from judgement unlike your hugely judgemental post .

I think the big problem with seeking advice from strangers online is they have no details other than a few words on a screen. For (some) people reading threads it is literally black and white. But life is not black or white. There are layers and layers in between.

I find it similar with threads encouraging people to "LTB", or tell the MIL to fuck off, or block the friend who hasn't been available to go out the last twice you asked. Etc.

Advice on here rarely seems to be nuanced. It's an all or nothing situation for many. There is good advice given on threads, but I think sometimes it gets lost amongst the overwhelming negative.

I think, personally, abortion wouldn't be for me. I think if I couldn't afford another child I'd prefer to try find a way to improve my situation rather than abort. But I understand that might simply not be an option for another woman.

I would never advise someone to abort. I rarely (only in the case of clear abuse) advise somebody to leave their relationship.

I think it is advice with very real consequences for the person involved, handed out glibly by people who will ever be affected by the decision.

It doesn't sit well with me.

I definitely think finances are a valid reason to decide not to become a parent. An embryo can’t feel an empty stomach, or the cold from having ill-fitting clothes, or the sadness of having no access to an outdoor space to play, or the shame of ridicule because they can’t afford nit treatments or sanitary products.

That said, it’s not for me to judge someone for either decision.

@TellMeWhoTheVilliansAre thank you. I have posted a few times now and have been met with black and white responses to LTB. It’s made me question my reality. I got in a massive argument with my DH because I took people on MN advice that he was abusive. I pointed out to them all the good in him, and that they didn’t know our relationship etc, yet people still think it’s a clear cut as just leave. They were ignoring all the positives.

You’ve voiced what I had been thinking but hadn’t been able to put into words - most MN responses are black and white and those responses aren’t helpful, it’s those considered ones where the poster isn’t judging and is offering genuine advice like they would if it were their friend IRL.

I would not have told my friend irl to leave her DH for the reasons I put on my post, yet so many people told me to! There are so many layers and it’s not black and white.

But having a child is an economic decision. Emotions are not going to put food in that child’s stomach and a roof over its head.

No, it isn't. It is a decision which has economic implications, but it's not the same as choosing a pension scheme or taking out a loan.