To think continuing with a pregnancy is just as valid a choice as ending it?

[JingleAtSoftPlay]

Even if, on paper, having an abortion is the logical choice?

I have been on MN a long time. Recently-this last year or two, perhaps- I've noticed a bit of a change in how women who post about their unplanned pregnancies are advised.

When I was first on MN, it was very much a case of "your body, your choice, but the decision has to be yours". Now women are being advised - often in quite strident terms- that if the situation isn't ideal, not only should they terminate, but the implication is that they'd be selfish and cruel if they did not, what would they be thinking, having another baby.

I'm pro choice, I have campaigned for abortion rights, and I myself have had an unplanned pregnancy. This isn't about pro life/pro choice. However, one of the phrases I've often used towards pro life activists is "Pro choice doesn't equal pro abortion", and actually, I've read a few threads in recent months where I've felt some posters have in fact veered into pro abortion territory, they've been so intent on castigating the OP for her contraceptive failure and insisting that ending the pregnancy is the only fair and logical choice.

AIBU to think this is missing the point? It's almost as though it's somehow abnormal or silly for a woman to hold any sort of emotion towards her pregnancy, regardless of what her eventual decision is. A woman who, for example, is skint and who has not enough bedrooms per child in her house is just as entitled to continue a pregnancy as any other woman, even though on paper it isn't ideal. Because if she feels strongly that she can't terminate, that's up to her. She shouldn't be thought of as foolish or selfish for that, no more than a woman who chooses an abortion should be judged.

You can't take the emotions out of pregnancy, and nor should you, even if those emotions seem irrational to onlookers. I do wonder if this is a result of austerity and decisions such as the child tax credit limit- women's pregnancies and their children have been reduced down to a financial choice, and are treated with the accompanying hard headed, cold sense. All well and good when the matter is purely financial, but not something that should be applied to women's reproductive choices either way

But I You end a pregnancy you won't know what life is like if you hadn't. It annoys me when posters say "but you'll love them and be so glad you kept them OP" because that's not necessarily true. And of course anyone choosing to keep a baby is going to adore and take care of them, but it's not like if they terminated they would ever know the baby to adore and take care of - if that makes sense?

Sometimes I see posters encouraging women with health problems or violent partners to take the easier route and terminate a pregnancy. They're coming from a place of kindness.

Where I’m from (North America) adoption is an equally valid option (heavily encouraged by some belief systems.) Three of my very close friends were raised by adoptive parents. I was surprised how ‘traumatic’ it’s considered to be in the UK.

I've posted about an abortion before under a previous account (last year) and found it different.
My baby was likely to be deformed and I was made to feel like the most evil person in the world for deciding to terminate. The replies were quite frankly vile and really upset me. It was the logical choice yet I was repeatedly told I was in the wrong.
I've seen a couple of posts on here since that are similar and they didn't get the level of abuse that I received 9mths previously, but still got a lot of 'you should keep the baby' replies.

I’m pro choice, and no, you can’t force someone to have an abortion.

It is something I’ve been thinking about lately though a lot because my teenage DD has a boyfriend.

If she fell pregnant, the financial and practical responsibility would end up being mine if she wanted to keep the baby. I’m not in a position to support another child, and am very careful with my own contraception as a result.

It seems a bit “unfair” somehow that I would have no say in her continuing the pregnancy or not, even if the burden was mine.

Just something I’ve been thinking about.

I don’t recall any posts where the OP is being told what she must do.

I do recall many threads where women are expressing their opinions that termination would probably be the best option under the circumstances, I also recall on those threads there are plenty of women expressing their opinion that OP should carry on if she wants.

Most threads, most people are very careful to offer their own opinion, what they would do.

Decisions are ultimately deeply personal and based on individual feelings/opinions ateotd.

For example, I'm 11 weeks' pregnant at the age of almost 39 - my third (planned) baby, fiancé's first. I have two children already ages 9 and 12.

Fiancé and I both work ft on a joint income of around £37k pa. We receive no benefits, I don't receive any maintenance as share care (enforced) 50:50 with my ex-husband. We live in a small three-bed rented property and not in a position to purchase.

We certainly don't have much money and no spare room for baby so won't be having a nursery etc.

I also suffer from severe health anxiety and have a history of recurrent mc.

To lots of people I'm sure they'd think we are mad in our position to have tried for a pregnancy, that another child to them would be crazy.

But for us, we are entirely confident it is the right thing for our family.

I guess what I am trying to say is decisions are so deeply personal - it's not for me to judge others or pass comment about what I would do if I was in their specific situation.

Sad to hear you have seen that on threads OP.

I agree OP.

Also agree with @Lessthanzero @Lardlizard - think you need to reread Less’ post or read up on how conception works and contraception works, your understanding of either one is off (very off, the womb can’t get sticky you silly person) Less than is talking about from the point of conception - the point when the sperm fertilises the egg. Both the MaP and Pill work at a pre conception level. The Pill can make you produce more cervical mucous which can travel down into the vaginal walls but not up into your womb!!! However that is not the primary way these medications work. Please please educate yourself on how your own body works.

Anyway yes OP I’ve seen it and YANBU.

@ViciousJackdaw you illustrate the point perfectly I’m afraid!

I think that what is often missed is how freaking terrible it is to go through. Emotionally. Physically.

For those who condemn on either side, stop please and just be supportive.

I am old and I have known many situations, vicariously as a friend or relative or personally. Sometimes tnere is no "good" answer. There is only tragic vs awful.

I don't suggest anyone take my advice except the people who smugly tell women not to terminate are quite often people who don't understand what it is to be backed into a corner,

I know plenty of people who mourn terminations (not just the woman, but her family and friends who love her.) I know one woman who thought it was a form of birth control. I ended our friendship bc when she finally had a child, she was abusive. I know women who regret it and my aunt, who was raped and kept her child was tormented by him and also, when she needed him, he did not help her.

Everyone has their own story. In the end, we must reconcile our decisions with whomever we believe is waiting at our ends; even if it's ourselves in the mirror. Not every child is loved, but if you are struggling with the decision, yours will probably be loved. But sometimes love is not enough. No simple answers.

My gran used to say, "cross your legs and keep your feet in a bucket!" As the only sure form of birth control.

Are you are talking about threads, like the one, where the pregnant op said she couldn’t look after her first baby at all for the first year due to extreme ill health? She was not able to guarantee she would not get ill or if struck with illness if she would recover the second time. That would have led to devastating consequences for her first child and new baby.

I imagine this wasn’t a nice thread in the end. Guilt tripping, nastiness and goady language is never ok especially when the op is vulnerable. I didn’t follow the thread as I found the whole situation upsetting due to my fertility journey. Horrible for a desperate woman coming on here for support.

Both the MaP and Pill work at a pre conception level.

The pill can do both - it makes the lining of the womb thinner and less likely for implantation. Not sure why you would write a long post deriding the PP without looking it up quickly.

Op, I have noticed that trend too. It is very sad, pro choice should mean the woman has a choice. Some women need more time to come to decision, but some posters would try and add pressure so op comes to a decision within a day. If she can't then it means she has decided to keep it. No all it means is, she is taking her time to make a big decision in life. It is not like choosing what to wear today, it is a permanent decision to abort. There is no coming back. So I dislike it when others pressure op to hurry up with the decision. Yes, I know it is still growing but why not allow women to do it after coming to peace with their decision? I worry if people keep pointing at the time a lot of women would regret abortions more than if they just waited extra few days. I'm fully aware that not all women regret abortions but I feel like thoes women are ones who made the decision for themselves without having had people constantly pointing at the ticking clock.

@RiddleyW no the pill works by stopping ovulation. Most brands will make your womb lining thinner as you’re interrupting the normal hormone cycle that thickens the lining prior to ovulation. That’s why lots of people will say you don’t have ‘proper’ periods on the pill. Buts lots of women get pregnant with incompetent womb linings so if we were relying on this as the way the medication worked then the % protection rate would be tiny! It pisses me off that in this day and age grown women still don’t understand how their bodies and contraception works!

Yes nothing in your last post contradicts mine.

Yes, I've read the thread some posters are referring to, and I've seen it before too. Obviously there's a lot of good advice given as well, and people advocating for continuing the pregnancy if that's what OP wants, but compared to a few years ago, there are many, many more posts eltelling OP that she should terminate, it's the logical choice, the inference being that she's silly and over emotional if she doesn't. I've seen this on posts where an abortion probably is the logical and best choice, but also on posts where the OP's only real issues are the sort of housing/financial ones that aren't set in stone and don't last forever,and the OP would, if she had the extra money or the third bedroom, be thrilled to be pregnant

Obviously, in an ideal world, children should be planned and had when circumstances are ideal, I do feel there's a view that if the woman doesn't have the marriage, big house, and certain income level, then the kneejerk reaction is that the pregnancy shouldn't be continued. I do actually see WHY this view is held- abortion is a free, safe and avaliable option and no woman should be forced into an awkward position because of an unplanned pregnancy - but at the same time, women are individuals, every situation is unique, pregnancy is a messy emotional time, and I think having any sort of dominant social expectation regarding women's pregnancy choices is gong to work against what pro choice really stands for.

For example, back in the 50s and 60s the expectation was that young unmarried mothers would give their children up for adoption. While this worked for some, for many others it was a disaster. Many of those women would have kept their babies, and would have made good mothers. Now, I feel the expectation is that older women who already have a couple of children and find themselves pregnant are expected to terminate - you've already got healthy children, the environment, kids having to share a room etc etc.

Again, I'm not even saying people are wrong to give this advice - often, on paper, it does make sense. But what I do object to is the assumption that a woman's personal feelings around abortion/her pregnancy don't matter, and should be ignored in favour of the "common sense" option. I don't like the precedent it sets,and I'm not quite able to articulate why. I also feel it's something that proportionally will affect more lower income/wc women.

I'm tired as my youngest ended up waking up unwell for most of last night so I'm probably not making a huge amount of sense myself!

I do see a bit of what you describe. However its normally in circumstances where it's clear the woman hasn't really thought through the practicalities of having a baby, they're young and have no support etc (eg they think it will be easy to finish their studies with a newborn then just get a job where they can work from home and look after the baby at the same time, and happily co-parent with an abusive ex or someone they've just met etc - all quite unrealistic). I wonder if you've noticed an increase in this type of comment if its connected to the economy, and the reductions in benefits etc. Or if it's now more socially acceptable for people to admit that having s baby was the wrong choice for them as it was much harder than they anticipated

I have a really hard time deciding where I sit on the pro-choice fence. I had a termination about 20 years ago because I was in an awful relationship and knew it was meant misery and no life for me. It still doesn’t sit comfortably with me that I did that.

I’ve now got a DS, 1 and we’re trying for number 2. I had a MC a couple of months ago.

I really struggle to accept what I did 20 years ago. That was my child. Even though I know my life was better for it, I still don’t think it was right. I was just 7 weeks when I had a MC, yet they was my baby. It was my baby, I couldn’t just see it as an embryo.

None of this relevant, just my own musings on how I feel about termination.

Doormat I'm sorry you had to go through that, how dare people be so horrible to someone facing that I supported a friend of mine who was in the same situation some years ago. It's a hard road to travel

Totally agree OP. I've seen a lot of posts like it lately. I also totally agree that it's because of austerity and benefit cuts.

Look at women who choose to have children whilst on benefits. There are no laws saying you can't have children whilst on benefits, there aren't even any rules against it. The only rule is that people won't get more money for a third or subsequent child. Yet women who do are treated worse than murderers. They're viewed as selfish, stupid, irresponsible, bad parents and bad people.

Following on from this people are also viewed as being selfish, stupid, irresponsible, bad parents and bad people if they're not deemed as perfect with a perfect life. I've seen people on here, Munsnet, saying that others shouldn't have children if they're:

Unmarried
Single
In a marriage/relationship that isn't perfect
Rent
Own a flat/house without a garden
Work part time
Work for minimum wage
Over 40
Under 35!

I've also seen elsewhere on the internet someone saying people shouldn't have children if they're unattractive!

Some people genuinely seem to believe that the only people who should be allowed to exercise their basic human right to have a family, ie have children are those who are between 35-39, in a perfect marriage, with the perfect man, own the perfect house, which must have a garden, work full time, in a well paid career, oh and they must be attractive.

It's basically eugenics! 😱

I actually find MN rather pro life. It depends on the situation but often I’ve noticed women talking more about the guilt and shame they’d feel over terminating, especially if they are mothers, rather than whether they truly want another child. I know women feel guilt over it, and I’m not saying it’s wrong but I hate the whole public discourse that choosing an abortion is something shameful and we must automatically feel distraught and guilty. I see more replies along the lines of ‘you’ll never regret it once the baby is born’. The thing is many many women would probably want more children if their circumstances were different (and I don’t just mean financial, you have to consider health/mental wellbeing) that doesn’t mean they should, and I include myself in that. Full disclosure, I had an abortion for several reasons when my youngest dc was a baby and I’ve never looked back.

I do think a lot of it is linked to the economy. A PP upthread mentioned her thoughts re supporting her teenage daughter financially and practically if she was pregnant. I used to liase with a young parents project as part of my job - this was pre austerity. The project paid for childcare so that the teenagers could continue with their education, helped them get set up in their own homes, taught them how to budget etc. They also ran support groups which covered everything from what a healthy relationship looked like, to contraception, to weaning. It was an absolutely brilliant service, I saw many of the kids out and about for some years until I moved away from the area, and most of them ended up doing well. The service doesn't exist any more, except in a hugely reduced and pared down form. The point being, teenagers who became pregnant were supported through the project to care for their babies and be in control of their own lives - the assumption wasn't "abort or your mum will have to look after it". Yet services like that are first to be cut. I'm sure there's many who would argue that it's a waste of money and that no teenage girl should be having a baby anyway, abortion safe free and legal etc - but I would prefer to live in a country where bodily autonomy is respected and women are supported in their choices.

*even if that means spending money