AIBU to think there’s nothing my sister can do about this emotional and physical abuse by my niece?

[Hallomother]

I’m posting this here for traffic as we are absolutely desperate and don’t really know what else to do. I know AIBU can be brutal but I’m hoping for any helpful suggestions or advice.

My niece who is 21 has been emotionally abusing my sister for years it's escalated and escalated to the stage where my sister no longer feels safe in the house. The police have been called on numerous occasions but nothing has come of it. There have also been physical elements where my sister has been pushed and shoved and had several items such as shoes and water bottles thrown at her. She also assaulted another younger relative who was trying to intervene once.

My sister has contacted all sorts of organisations but no one can offer any practical advice for getting my niece out of the house. My sister has tried to find out if emergency accommodation is available so that if she changed the locks, my niece wouldn't be on the streets but has been told there isn't anything. Despite all the abhorrent behaviour towards her she obviously is still her mother and could not live with the crushing guilt of the thought of her daughter living on the streets.

Has anyone been in this situation before or can anyone offer any practical advice for getting her to move out? I am so worried about my sister, she is literally at breaking point.

There are no friends who would allow her to sofa surf so that isn't an option. Please don't advise sitting her down and talking to her every attempt leads to abuse, insults and threats. She isn’t reasonable in any way, knows full well the impact her behaviour is having and seems to delight in it so any kind of reasoning is completely pointless.

I know some of you will say that this is a reflection on my sister’s parenting but I can genuinely genuinely say it isn’t. She’s tried everything, she’s been loving, supportive and kind, tried to contact every organisation imaginable for support/counselling etc (niece refuses to go) and has done everything she can to try to get help both for her and my niece. It just feels like she has been completely abandoned to deal with it alone.

Any advice or suggestions would be so gratefully received.

I’m happy to give the county out by PM if anyone knows of any regional organisations but I don’t want to put it in the main thread Incase somehow it gets back to her.

Thank you.

How awful. Presumably she's called the crisis team?

How long has this been going on for?

She needs to change the locks. By the sound of it the niece wouldn’t go even if she did find her emergency accommodation. She’s enabling the niece’s behaviour by letting her stay.

Your niece is 21, not a child. She needs to be kicked out of the home immediately and the locks need to be changed. It's time for her to face the consequences of her behaviour. Who else lives in the home?

I do appreciate that @darkstar4855 but when she knows for a fact she'll have nowhere to go but out on the streets, it's a really difficult thing to do. Plus, to be honest I'm terrified she'd do something like try to burn the house down or something in retaliation for being shut out, or break the windows/kick the door in etc.

@nanbread we were referred to the antisocial behaviour team after calling the police out again recently, is that the same as the crisis team?
It's been going on for years now, at least 5-6 but it has escalated over time from her just being difficult to being impossible and abusive rather than more of a danger to herself, ie running away and things.

@aquamarine1029 just my sister and my niece. But she's so unpredictable and threatening that I would be really concerned about what would happen if the locks were changed - she would look for a way to retaliate 100% for being forced out.

I think she needs to change the locks. She is 21 not a child, she will have to cope on her own- she will moderate her behaviour for sure once she realises that she has no longer has your sister to fall back on.

Does she have any diagnosed MH issues or suspected addictions?
I favour the lock change, but informing the local police first to flag the address up for subsequent calls. Perhaps even a restraining order. I'm afraid this is tough love - your niece's behaviour is unacceptable (whatever the reason for it) and you sister is in danger. Rendering her homeless could move the situation forwards and force her to have whatever help she needs.

I'm not sure what people can suggest.
Chuck her out- You sister won't.
Talk to her- Nope doesn't work.
Police- Aren't any help.
There's not really much else. She probably needs the short sharp shock of being turned out on her arse.

Tough love is needed.
She needs to leave.
Change the locks.
Call the police if she gets violent.
Otherwise she will never learn

Your sister is enabling her. There are zero consequences for her behaviour so why would she bother changing? She needs a big fat dose of the real world. That's the only thing that might turn her around. Your niece refuses to help herself, so what else can your sister do? She shouldn't have to live in terror in her own home.

how awful, when the police have been do they suggest restraining order, kicking her out, changing the locks? has she ever got to the stage when your sister has had her arrested? would she feel able to do that.
Does your neice work, claim benefits, why can't she move out and live on her own somewhere and pay rent.

I think she clearly does have MH issues but they are not diagnosed - she won't see anyone - doctors/therapists etc.

I think my sister is terrified of losing the house (council house) if she kicks her out and she damages the property, as well as feeling horrendously guilty that she'll be out on the streets in the cold with nowhere to go. I know it must be frustrating to hear she really doesn't want to chuck her out - she would chuck her out if there was somewhere she could go - she had a plan to have the police come and make her forcibly leave the property when she was initially talking to antisocial team, but then they said they wouldn't be able to offer anything in the way of accommodation so she'd just have to be out on the streets.
It just seems insane that it's the only option.

She needs to call the police and insist on pressing charges and/or get a restraining order or similar. If she won't do anything - then you are right to say that there is nothing to be done. Your sister needs to solve her problem - which is that she is unsafe in her home - because she cannot solve your DN's. If DN is made homeless by your sister changing the locks then she can go and get emergency accommodation, but your sister can't do it for her. Alternatively the "younger relation" could press charges.

your neice is not a child, she is an adult, why is she still living with her mum if she hates it so much. has your sister contacted the council safeguarding team, they might be able to help, this is domestic abuse.
this link is for teenages but maybe there is something there that might help.
www.familylives.org.uk/advice/teenagers/behaviour/teen-violence-at-home/

Can you contact the adult safeguarding team via the council to raise your concerns for your sister? In my experience they are good at protecting vulnerable people. Failing that, ask to speak to the police domestic abuse team - they deal with all forms of DA, not just partner abuse.
I understand your sister's views about not wanting to leave her daughter homeless but could she afford to rent somewhere for your niece to move into? I know some areas have specialist charities that support young people at risk of homelessness so may be worth contacting shelter for advice for your niece. Hope it all works out.

as a last resort, if your sister doesn't want to kick her out, could she rent a bedsit or something similar for her daughter, then speak to the council about rehousing. why couldn't your dn stay in a hostel? and take herself down to the homeless unit.

If DN is made homeless by your sister changing the locks then she can go and get emergency accommodation

This is totally incorrect. DN would probably be able to get on the housing list, but unless she has a dependent child she will NOT get temporary accommodation. Even with diagnosed mental health issues she would not be deemed to be in priority need. Unless she lives in a per of the country where the amount of social housing available exceeds the amount needed she WILL be sleeping rough.

Please don't give advice like this without checking your facts first as it could make an already difficult situation infinitely worse.

Whereabouts are you?

some good advice here thank you.
She hasn't been arrested - I don't think the police take it seriously, she always runs off before they arrive and they just speak to my sister about what's happened and then go.

She is on universal credit I think.

We were looking at renting her somewhere but she has made it clear she would wreck the place so we would be liable for costs and damage.

I will look into the domestic abuse team, council safeguarding and talking to shelter, thank you.

@MrsTerryPratchett I have pmed you

when all this abuse and threatening behaviour starts your sister could record it, maybe even think about installing hidden cameras. she knows what she is doing, she runs off and then makes threats to wreck somewhere you found her. silly girl. maybe the police can't do much unless your sister pressed charges. hope you and your sister get it sorted.

@aloeveralynn you're right, and I'm not trying to be obtuse in my answers, I guess I was just hoping someone might have another answer that isn't 'throw her out'.

Can your sister apply for a swap to a 1 bedroom so she doesn't have room for her?

So how long Ian your sister going to enable this behaviour because there is nowhere else for her to go, a year? 2? 5? 10? Because your niece has no consequences to her actions she isn’t going to go anywhere is she.

I don’t think there is any magic answer beyond your sister being brave, making a decision, going through with it and being strong. If the agencies are already involved they need to be made aware of what is happening. In parallel she should also get a restraining order so that at least the police can do something if it is breached.

The agencies are unlikely to do anything because she is at home with her Mum - cheapest option all round!

Does the niece not work?