Average incomes

[flabbergastedfinances]

Found out that the average family income is around £30,000 a year and I can not believe it. I don't know a single family on anywhere near this low, lowest is possibly 70k mark between two teachers but majority have two earners pulling in 40+ each or one higher earner on 80/90k+

How on earth is 30,000 even possible in light of minimum wage and benefits/tax credits etc? What is even more shocking is that I used the where do you fit in calculator and we are apparently in top 98% of families in the uk. No chance, absolutely no chance.

We might have a high ish mortgage (still only £1000 so not outrageous) and have slipped into bad spending habits (Uber's, eating lunch out every day, new clothes now and then) but we are hardly excessive. We can't afford to run two cars, can't afford foreign holidays, can't afford the posher shops like Boden or northface new and yet this chart tells me we have it better than nearly everyone else in the country?! What am I missing?!

We have a child in childcare a few days a week, so that and mortgage are biggest expenses but combined that's only £1500 and I see everyone else buying £300 coats, spending 1000s on holidays, children in private schools and I am utterly stumped.

How can the average family income be £30,000? Which families are surviving on that? None I know that's for sure and I just refuse to believe that's an actual reality

What an insensitive post . A way to make someone feel bad about their income . 😶😐

@orangeteal I'm not suggesting the tax system is wrong at all in this country.
I don't think the other poster did either. I actually favour slightly higher taxes for top earners than we currently have now, but the tax system does 'favour the poor' as they pay less percentage-wise than the rich, and that's how it should be in my view but there are countries in Europe that have a flat tax where everyone pays the same percentage wise regardless of income.

In our part of SW London £30k would get you nothing at all. You need at least £100k household income to pay rent / mortgage here, and most families are on £150k+. And that's just the local state school. Private school is another league. But there are plenty of other places to live, plenty of other schools. We seriously looked at relocating to Yorkshire if things didn't work out financially, and £30k stretches much further there. It's all relative - yes we have higher income, but we'd have much more 'stuff' in Yorkshire than London (bigger house, car etc.) on less money. As long as you've got what you need / want, what does it matter what the number is?

I don’t think the OP was being goady by questioning how hard it must be to live on lower incomes.

Except that isn't what she was doing. Her OP stated that she refused to believe that such households existed. Which was goady AF.

You need at least £100k household income to pay rent / mortgage here

So does your area not have any cleaners or shop assistants then? Because I assure you they aren't earning that. Your post is such bollocks.

You need at least £100k household income to pay rent / mortgage here

She probably means to a minimum acceptable standard to a person with enough money to not have to compromise. A house not a flat, a bedroom for each child, not sharing, near the right schools etc etc.

Totally oblivious to the fact that people on lower incomes don't have the luxury of living where they like in a house that is big enough for their needs and near to the good schools, because that is a luxury in many parts of the country, affordable to only the highest earners.

I don't understand how you know what all your friends earn. Ok you can guess some in public sector jobs or assume an average for a role but who talks about this? I can't think of a single friend whose salary I know.

Op I do find it kind of offensive you equate being a nurse to being a low level job. You do realise most nurses have a degree don’t you? If that’s your lowest level job the. You are obviously mixing in very different circles to most.

Also feeling irritated by the OP's statement that nursing is a 'low level' job. F&*! right off with that one!

We’re on a joint income of 45k with me working part time and paying for Nursery 3 days a week. We can afford to run two cars.

Well, the cleaners, gardeners, shop assistants etc. don't live near us - they all commute in. There was a news article about the Met Police saying most of their officers have to live outside London and commute to the places they patrol, for instance.

And as for not knowing other people's incomes, we did actually tell each other what we earned during a drunken parents evening, because we were having a pretty similar discussion one night about how people can cope on low incomes round here, and what a bubble this area is, and how unprepared our kids are for 'real life'. And then this thread popped up!

Cleaners etc do live in SW London too. Mine lives in Putney (on a council estate). State schools in the most expensive areas of London still do have some children on free school meals - I think a family needs household income under 15k-ish to qualify.

It's interesting what people consider essentials v disposable income too.
I live in a fairly MC area and nearly everyone I know has a cleaner whether they are working FT, PT or a SAHP, probably 75% have dogs and would pay for some kind of dogwalking/daycare. A lot would have private health insurance. So they might include those in essentials, where as I might consider them extras or luxuries (I'm not suggesting it's ok not to walk a dog or provide adequate care, just that it isn't compulsory to have a dog)

Where abouts in SW london are you talking? I can't think of anywhere in SW London where you need to earn 100k to live.

Earlier on someone was saying that 3 bed terraces were 1.2m in SW London. I'm guessing fulham/clapham/battersea/wandsworth?

I'm somewhat surprised that the OP knows exactly how much all of her friends and neighbours earn. I rarely have this conversation, even with close friends. Of course I have an idea about their income though it's just that - an idea which could be quite far off. I certainly wouldn't be able to go on MN and say that all my acquaintances earn 50 K or whatever.

Well I'm talking Teddington / Twickenham area. And yes, you could live in a 2 bed flat on less than that, but it's not great for raising a family. I agree with @skinnychip about 'essentials'. It's all relative.

For instance, the teacher in Y5 asks what everyone's done over Feb half-term. The answer is 'skiing'. Asks for a show of hands - only 5 kids out of 30 haven't been skiing. And to be fair, one of those kids went to St Lucia. :).

And that's the local state school - the private school parents are the ones who get to lord it over us. Because they break up a week early, they say things like 'We're sooo lucky to get a cheap 4* hotel, the resort is much quieter in the 2nd week of half term'. Meanwhile we're schlepping thorough Gatwick Airport at 5am because it costs £250 a head just to get to fucking Geneva once the state schools break up. So we feel poor. Even though we clearly aren't.

So yes- getting back to the OP's point, it's totally feasible that she can't fathom how people get by on £30k. I worry that our kids don't realise that having two cars and a cleaner isn't the norm.

@Leafyhouse I’m about the skiing! I live in a well off (usually 1.5x or 2x professional / managerial level salary families) nowhere near London village. State school. We are a £250 a head to GVA half term skiing family with a Y6er. I think only one other kid in her class skis.
Not questioning you, just that is so much the norm where you are!
Round my way, despite being state school skiers ourselves, it’s definitely seen as private school = the ski set.

@Leafyhouse That’s an unusual concentration of keen skiers. If you look at stats for you local schools, you’ll see that Twickenham School has higher proportion of pupils on free school meals than the national average. Below that for Turing or Orleans Park but there’s poverty around nonetheless.
While there are plenty of well-off families in SW London there are plenty of people in poverty too. Probably not too many on middle incomes unless you look towards Hampton or Sutton.

We have also found that the tax system massively favours the poor against the hard working and high earning.

Massively favours? Some people probably pay in tax a week what I earn, before I've paid any tax and NI, if not more. And according to you, not paying my earnings in entirety in tax is a 'massive favour'?
If we're going to go down that route then there needs to be a universal income, regardless of your job, and everyone pays the same amount of tax. But the high earners won't want that because then who on earth can they call lazy? And insinuate they don't work hard enough? And feel superior over because of their massive sacrifice of 'hard work'.

Consider the following two statements

The tax system massively favours the poor.
or
The tax system helps to reduce inequality.

How you interpret the tax system says quite a lot about you I think.

Our household income is about £49k at the moment. Our mortgage is fairly high (live in the South East, it’s that or don’t own a home tbh), we still manage to have a holiday or two, eat well, have fairly expensive hobbies, and don’t feel massively over-stretched. We feel very lucky. I could go back to full time hours (and start doing unsociable hours again if I really wanted the pay increases) and we could probably be on £70k+ but once you start paying for more childcare and having more deductions for student loan etc. it doesn’t seem worth it to miss out on time at home with the baby.

How can you be smart enough to be a high earner but be so socially unaware and lacking in critical thinking? Not really targeting you specifically op, but so many people who claim to be high earners on here seem to lack common sense I wonder how they got where they are.

Cleaners etc do live in SW London too. Mine lives in Putney (on a council estate).

But your cleaner is in a council estate so probably has cheaper housing. There is a severe lack of available social housing now hence why poor families are getting shipped out of London. I know lots of my local schools have older teachers who live 5 mins away whereas the younger ones are travelling in from cheaper areas, same for the police.

Sorry if I’ve missed this OP, but why are your household childcare costs so high if you are not working?