To be worried about best friend and her husband (long, sorry)

[Downbythewaterside]

For background, best friend (A) and I grew up together. I met DH and introduced her to a friend of his, who is now her DH (B).

We’re all married for close to 10 years and have DC. Every now and then I see behaviours in B that make me feel worried. B is a doctor, this is relevant. For context, B and I do not see eye to eye at all and have had ‘heated debates’ in the past. An example is B insisting that ‘women’ are all ‘depressed now’ because of the dual expectations of working in and out of the home, therefore it was better when they didn’t have the opportunity. A says he said it to wind me up, as he finds it funny that I’m a staunch feminist. I’m not sure if my underlying dislike of B is colouring my opinion. Some examples of things which bother me:

• A sometimes let’s slip details of their finances. I noticed A has been very careful with money since becoming a SAHM last year, for eg she doesn’t have some winter clothing etc. We went shopping together and she let slip that since becoming a SAHM B hasn’t allowed her access to any of his accounts. He transfers a (in my opinion) very small amount of money to her account and she has run through her own savings. As he’s often non-contactable at work, she saves this money as a buffer in case she needs to do some emergency shopping etc for the baby. So won’t spend on herself. Worse still he’s made it her fault, telling her she is irresponsible with money. This is not consistent with my knowledge of A from childhood. Also, A doesn’t know this but my DH told me that B ran up significant debt in uni and after, and was bailed out each time by his wealthy father.

• after A had a baby, she suffered post part in depression. B continued to work insane hours and didn’t take leave. A left to spend time with her parents, to support her. It came out that whilst she was away, B was staying overnight at an ex’s house. The ex was his last relationship before A. Again, when A confronted him, he insists A is in the wrong for not being ‘evolved’ enough to look past jealousy, and makes A feel petty. This has happened multiple times.

• he will outright deny things. Small example, they moved into a house which hadn’t been cleaned. Anyone could see it was dirty. He just kept repeating ‘there’s no dirt’ and refused to acknowledge that cleaning was required, so he didn’t have to do any of it.

• he will use being a doctor as a trump card. For example, when A was in hospital post birth he didn’t let her access any mental health/ breastfeeding support as he’s a doctor and knows better than nurses/ midwives. Last year, he tried to force me to give medication to my DD (under the recommended age) because he’s a doctor and knows better. He had a huff and we had words when I refused. I apologised in the end but didn’t medicate DD. He massively encouraged A to leave her part time job and be a SAHM.

• this is the trickiest one. A had some MH issues when we were young. For whatever reason she has not told B about them. She also didn’t seek help for her postpartum depression and he encouraged her not to.

• he does NOTHING around the house as she is SAHM and he’s a busy doctor. I appreciate this is none of my business but with everything else makes me wary.

No one IRL agrees with me. B is very charming and very extravagant with gifts etc. He is always making grand philosophical statements about ‘helping the sick’ etc but as far as I can see won’t extend that to his own wife and kid. A lot of stuff, A tells me in confidence so I don’t share with DH. Worse of all, A is completely in awe of B and won’t ever hear him criticised.

Am I being silly? Or should I be concerned?

Sorry if I offend anyone but he sounds like every male doctor I ever dated or worked with. I stayed well clear when it came to settling down. Arrogance and entitlement are taught at med school in my opinion. She's being financially and emotionally abused. He's a controlling narcissist. I'm afraid his views of nurses though are common amongst doctors.

Being dismissive of women only works until the women recognize the pattern of behavior and call him on it. Then the abusive control method alters somewhat.
Your friend needs to make an escape plan, just in case.

Talking to her mum is a productive plan, but do it in person or on the phone, not text/email/letter.
If he is as bad as you suspect, you can’t risk making physical evidence that he can use against you, it risks isolating A even further.

You sound like a good friend.

This is so textbook it’s not even funny.
Keep being a good friend OP, a subtle chat with A’s mother seems like a good idea, she’ll probs my be relieved someone else is “on to him”
Best wishes

He sounds absolutely awful, your poor friend, hopefully one day soon she will wake up and see what he is like, until then there isn't much you can do other than let her know you will be there for her if she ever decided to leave, keep pointing out subtly all the things he does to her, how it's wrong and controlling.

And as hard as it may be you need to stop biting when he is winding you up, he is doing it on purpose to make you look unreasonable to everyone, he knows you can see through his bullshit so he's doing all he can to discredit you, make you look stupid and cause a rift between you and your friend, so don't rise to it. Everyone will side with him because he's the oh so generous doctor and you will look like a crazy bitch, he knows what he is doing.

I KNEW he was a surgeon before you even said, some are lovely but many are nightmares.

“I'm afraid his views of nurses though are common amongst doctors.” Yep!

“Why on earth would a doctor not want his wife to get help for PND?” Lots of hcps don’t “believe in” mental illness a shocking number, I’ve even met mental health hcps who don’t “believe in” certain mh conditions.

I suspect given everything else we know it was also hugely because treatment would have included therapy and his abuse would have become known and he DEFINITELY wouldn’t have wanted that!

What’s really worrying is this will be tip of the iceberg, she won’t be telling you/making you aware of the worst of it and what you do know is pretty bloody awful!

Don’t let him isolate her from you, I totally agree that’s why he’s winding you up. I reckon he knows you’ve got his number.

Try as subtly as possible to encourage her to go back to work, to keep talking to you, to stay in touch with other friends that are supportive of her.

Be very careful because the temptation in your position is to encourage her to challenge him, to push for certain changes that will anger him or to “open her eyes”.

This can be dangerous in a few ways, it could anger him and you don’t know if there is physical abuse or if that could trigger physical abuse, if he senses the motivation is coming from things you’ve said then he may well step up efforts to turn her against you, you could push it too far with her and she chooses to cut you out because she’s not yet ready to see the light or make changes leaving her stuck when she does need you.

I do think her returning to work is important enough to risk encouraging though because it will give her connections outside the world he’s creating, an income and hopefully help rebuild her confidence.

It’s incredibly difficult and frustrating I know, I’ve been in your position twice with different outcomes. The main one is my mum, she will never leave my dad and I’ve resigned myself to accepting that now and have decided to just be there for her to talk to and give moral support as much as I can. They’ve been married nearly 50 years and are catholic. I went through a phase of begging and pleading with her to leave in my teens and 20’s, less vocally so in 30’s then through my 40’s I’ve been gradually reaching the point I am now.

The other situation with a friend he was very violent, she left a few times and then went back to him, it was only when she had dc and the first time after that when he hospitalised her ss got involved and basically told her it’s him or your child because we are not letting you have that child live with him it’s not safe. We’d had many discussions where again I had pleaded with her to leave him and stay left, the change was her being given essentially an ultimatum by ss, and thankfully she chose her child, but she had points where she waivered and I’d remind her of all the shit he’d done (not just violence there was all kinds of abuse), I hope it helped she tends naturally not to really want to talk about that these days as a long time ago now and she’s moved on.

People who haven’t experienced it or don’t know just how effective the mental “imprisonment” is think it’s very easy to “just tell her to leave” it’s not that simple. My mothers family tried to force her to leave my dad but she still went back to him.

I am far from being a feminist but I totally agree with you OP! He may be an excellent friend and great Dr. But he sounds like an awful husband.
There isnt much you can do though sadly. A has to see what you see and get fed up before anything can be done. Tough one.

How did he try and force you to medicate your dd? Did he threaten you in any way?

This intervention, and the stopping his wife accessing help, sound as if they could contravene his professional code of conduct/practice. I am not suggesting you go off to the GMC now, but it sounds as if he may already be so convinced of his own rightness that he's beginning to overstep boundaries that could get him in trouble. It may be useful for you to be aware that his professional body holds his behaviour in his private as well as professional life to a high standard.

I would absolutely talk to her parents, stay in her life and do not rise to his provocations.

Yeah he sounds bad , really bad
Ticks far too many boxes

BUT frankly until your friend breaks down there is very little you can do

If you slag him off she will defend him and maybe it will filter back to him then he will distance you

I would watch and stay close

One possible option is to educate your own DH and try and
Life the scales from his eyes

Just stay friends and watch and listen
Also
Gently encourage her back to work

It’s a really sad situation and I am sorry to advocate such a passive approach

Sooner or later the scales

I don’t know. All I know is with my close friends I will vent about my DH and so they only hear the bad stuff. Not that it is that bad. But just that we love to moan about husbands and men to someone safe who will not gossip it back to them. So that may be part of why you are only one who knows bad stuff and is worried.
I think it is great you support your friend. I would try and get her to be more assertive about money since the SAHM thing is new to them as a couple and the money sharing is probably going through growing pains. I know a friend where their joint income dropped by almost half when she became a SAHM and so money became a major issue in the marriage when before it had not because they had plenty for their needs. It was hard for them to both adjust lifestyle and extra baby expenses on less money.
The women depressed due to work and home I do not see as anti-feminist. Many many feminists have been saying for years that the super woman mother and CEO is a damaging myth that is causing depression in women who fail to meet this fantasy irl and think it is their fault they cannot have it all- high flying career and family. The it was better for women before.,,only correct in terms of expectations being lower. Mental health wise and rights definitely not.
I would not try and drive them apart but see what advice you can give to better their marriage. Having young children and loss of income is hard on any couple and men will make mistakes and be bastards until they have their eyes opened and fix themselves. For your friends sake and the kids, needs to be a chance for him to adjust to being a father and sole breadwinner without expectation he must do it perfectly. A high pressure job makes it that much harder to do.

When your friend gets to the point where she can not take any more of his abuse, help her contact Womens Aid, this organisation help women leave domestic abuse relationships safely.

You can also help her to gather any relevent documentation regarding finances, passports, birth certificates etc, that may be needed if she splits from him.

You could also bookmark information such as how to exit a relationship with a narcissist.

Gathering up information to give to her if and when she is ready to make her exit, but until then you cant really say very much to her about your fears for her.

Your friend is lucky to have you as a friend, you sound very caring.

When your friend gets to the point where she can not take any more of his abuse, help her contact Womens Aid, this organisation help women leave domestic abuse relationships safely.

Sadly, that’s not always a safe option. If he’s very controlling, and he finds out, that could make the situation far, far worse for A.

You're right to be concerned. The financial control is a massive red flag. If he runs to type he will gradually isolate your friend from you and from her family. For this reason you can't say anything. You'll just have to stay close with your friend until she's ready to see clearly. If you say anything too early he'll persuade her that you're jealous and don't have her best interests at heart, or some such nonsense that breaks your friendship.
It doesn't matter that other people only see the charm. You know what you know.

@Slappadabass yes I suspect he might be trying to, he always makes out I’m ‘highly strung’ and ‘emotional’ but in fact, I know one of my negative traits is I can be quite cold/ emotionless in stressful scenarios

@CatteStreet no he didn’t threaten at all, he’s never ever aggressive. With this medicine, it was for children 6+, DD is 4 and had an ordinary cold, did not need medication at all. He said just give her this, it’s fine. Because he has in the past given slightly blasé advice to others, I said no thanks but very politely. He then went to the pharmacy, bought the meds, poured it out and tried to make DD drink it. She started crying, and he huffed that she was hysterical like her mum. Then I told him I’d decide how to medicate my child and he had a ‘disappointed’ rant about women who think google is a substitute for real doctors, think they know better etc. I ended up apologising, not sure how.

Well, he knows you wouldn’t put up with him and he doesn’t want that rubbing off on your friend. From now on, any controlling crap directed at you or your family, should be met with “thanks but, it’s none of your business” and stick with spending time with your friend when he’s not around.
Capture this thread and keep it for her or her parents.
Definitely speak to them about this, and as I suggested, keep it all to yourselves for as long as possible and build a picture. You then can have it all out with her when she either crumbles one day, or when you can see that it’s time to intervene.

Youre right of course - he’s a grade A arsehole but she won’t leave him. She’s jobless and has no money. He’s got her right where he wants her - vulnerable and with a Young child.

He sounds like a cliche of an abuser.

The best option I can see is for B to move in with her mum on a permanent basis and for A to pay child maintenance.

He sounds utterly terrifying and this type of person is skilled in appearing charming to the outside world.

She isn't vulnerable if her mother can house and protect her.

He sounds financially abusive and misogynistic at the least. I would be worried too.

Yes he is a controlling narcissist and she has played right into his hands 😕

She has quite a distance to travel in order to get on top of the situation, first she needs to accept what's really going on and then she needs to to make a covert plan to deal with it
problem is she has no one to back her up and validate her side of things, would she come on here?

Sounds exactly like my ex sbusive bastard of a husband. Controlling, manipulative, vile

I would also be concerned about round your DD. He is starting is emotional abuse early. Being lavish with affection and then withdrawing. I would limit contact at this point.

Do not engage with him, walk out the room, do not challenge, he is cleaver and as you say he minimizes you.

You need to be there for your friend. If you could talk to her mother and just say you are concerned she is not spending much on herself and is going without.

I think you need to play the long game here, if you alienate him the chances are he will limit your contact with A.

I think you have a right to be worried.
Maybe talk to your friend about scenarios you have read on here and she if she twigs, that the behavior is similar to her situation.

He's horrid and sounds like someone I know. Everyone thinks he is Mr Wonderful and I am am the only one who sees through the bullshit. Nothing you can do, accept support your friend and be around when she needs you. She will see through him eventually. The sad thing is with my friend, is her husbands vile secret personality is coming out through the children as they repeat and or behave in a way they have obviously heard or been taught at home.