To think veganism is not for children?

[ohhhhlivia]

Yes, I am aware that it is perfectly possible to have a healthy vegan diet at any age. I know that.

However, it is more difficult and easier to get wrong if you want to be vegan. It still is restrictive (even with all of the new stuff coming out) as in you need to tell hosts, check menus in advance etc.

It's a barrier that has to be overcome. I don't understand why you would do that to someone who has no choice in the matter.

Lots of kids go through a fussy phase too, add veganism in and surely you're at a high risk of health problems?

I think what I'm getting at, is that childhood nutrition can be hard enough as it is, so it just feels wrong to make it harder for reasons that do not directly benefit the child.

My brother has got two little ones and whenever my mum goes over there the older one in particular always says she’s hungry

I have a vegan acquaintance who is always hungry. The sheer volume of food he eats is unbelievable.

I recently went out for dinner with friends and made some pork belly for my oh to eat whilst I was out. I had a couple of hours to go till dinner and was peckish so ate two slices of pork belly. My hunger totally went and once at the restaurant, I still wasn't at all hungry. Meat is very satiating.

Vegans are generally a lot healthier than meat eaters. If we were to compare the diet of a child from a healthy vegan family with the diet of a child who eats junk food regularly then you can’t say the latter is healthier purely because they eat meat.

A healthy vegan diet is superior to an omnivore diet that includes things such as bacon, sausages, processed foods etc.

I’m not a vegan fwiw but I don’t think raising a child as a vegan is a bad thing.

@ArnoldWhatshisknickers
I was merely pointing out the fact that modern western diets are one, amongst several, reasons why our life expectancy has dramatically increased.

What you failed to mention is that they’re also one of the reasons for life expectancy now decreasing. And yes meat consumption is linked to reduced life expectancy:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12936945/

@pepepig
Baked beans and mash is a pretty good balanced meal actually. One of your five a day, protein, fibre, carbohydrate, low fat, iron, zinc, b vits and folic acid.

I'm not vegan or even veggie but I know plenty of kids who don't eat a healthy diet and none of them are the veggie or vegan ones.

was peckish so ate two slices of pork belly

I'm not surprised you were full, that's about 500 calories, plus tons of saturated animal fat which is really bad for you, whichever way you look at things. That would have completely ruined my meal later.

I'm not vegan but have almost entirely cut out meat this year and feel much better for it, even though I didn't eat that much meat anyway compared with some people.

Veterinari

a- the study is about low, not no meat consumption so irrelevant to veganism, nor does it mention dairy or egg consumption or fish (as far as I'm aware those cultures with the longest life expectancies have diets rich in fish, particularly oily fish)

b 3.6 years in an average life expectance of around 76 (US figure) is not something I can get worked up about

If you want to limit your meat intake for an extra 3.6 years go for it. If others don't it hardly matters. This is not a dramatic change as was observed when poor people in the western world started having better diets thanks to improved agricultural methods and cheaper food being more freely available.

plus tons of saturated animal fat which is really bad for you

Yes I don't believe saturated animal fat is bad. I believe vegetable oils are far more damaging. I've started cooking with lard again. If you do some research, it's actually been unfairly demonised.

I'm not surprised you were full, that's about 500 calories

There's many foods you could eat 500 calories worth of and still be hungry though.

Saturated fat has been unfairly demonised in terms of butter, perhaps, but not saturated animal fat from meat, the official guidelines say to consume it in moderation. Or not at all, it's not actually something we need, nutritionally.

Only hydrogenated vegetable oils are bad for you. No need to worry about rapeseed.

Anyway, I must be doing something right as my cholesterol levels were "perfect" when I was checked recently.

There's many foods you could eat 500 calories worth of and still be hungry though

Not really. I'd still feel too full to eat a meal after whatever it was an hour later. Three hours later might be a different story depending on what food it was. I find 200 calories worth of tofu plus 100 calories of toast keeps me satiated for ages though, certainly from breakfast to lunch.

I find 200 calories worth of tofu plus 100 calories of toast keeps me satiated for ages

Mmmmm, phytoestrogens and carbs. Yes, so much healthier for you than a piece of meat

Correct.

For the cells in our bodies to function effectively we require proteins, carbohydrates, fats, minerals, vitamins, fibre and water. You can get both from either diet but the omnivore is the gold star way. Fats contain twice as much energy as a carbohydrate and whilst omnivores can utilise cheese, cream, milk, nuts and oils etc... a vegan will only have the option of the latter two. Again with proteins, omnivores have the option of eggs, fish, meat, cheese, soya and beans. Again the latter two are for vegans. Veganism is a sustainable diet but it isn't the better option for our bodies to function effectively. As an omnivore there is more variety and choice in what is used to provide the body with the nutrients it requires.

I feel that the omnivore diet is the most effective for the human body. I don't blast anyone whose vegan. Your choice, your body, your life. You can still gain the same nutrition but it is harder to fulfil the bodies needs. Equally supplements are required. I eat meat, fish, dairy, eggs etc... I do eat vegetarian and or vegan dishes for a couple of meals in the week. It's about moderation.

The modern western diet is unhealthy due to sugar, processed food, portion size etc

Yes. We are unhealthy because we eat too much (of everything and anything) and move too little and are wedded to our cars.

Whether you are fat as an omnivore, a vegetarian or as a vegan is really immaterial.

I agree it's about moderation and as I say, I'm not vegan - the most I could claim is to be pescatarian, but my diet is becoming more vegan and the less meat and dairy I eat the better I feel for it. And it's getting much easier to be vegan. I don't think eating meat or dairy is actually necessary and applaud people who can do it absolutely. Carbs are fine with me, they seem to suit me pretty well if I keep the refined carbs to a minimum.

Crazyoldmaurice
I fully understand veganism thanks. But again this thread isnt about the moral issues and reasoning of what vegans consume. If we are being technical in its classification breastmilk isnt vegan because it IS an animal product by chemical compostion...

Clearly you don't understand veganism (or the reasoning behind avoidance of animal products) if your interpretation is at odds with the Vegan Society whose founders established the concept of veganism. I've also never come across any vegan organisation which supports your particular (mis)interpretation of veganism in relation to humans breastfeeding their babies.

@ArnoldWhatshisknickers

I don’t care what you eat or how long you live. I’m simply pointing out that you have a tendency to make unfounded sweeping statements such as:

meat and dairy are not the big issues where that imperfection lies, plant based foods are.

When in fact there is clear evidence that meat consumption is detrimental to both health and lifespan and that nutritionally balances plant based diets are healthy.
Yes of course overall modern western diets are likely better than that of a malnourished mediaeval peasant Doesn’t mean they’re healthy though

Really though I find it weird that so many posters on this thread spend so much time and energy making judgements about other people’s perfectly reasonable dietary choices.

Veterinari

The discussion I was involved in was about whether modern western diets were amongst 'the most unhealthy of any time or place'. That was the point I took issue with, so yes, medieval diets are relevant to that point. The poster who made the sweeping comment about modern western diets brought up the obesity epidemic, which is primarily caused by over consumption of sugary foods, hence the mention of plant, not meat based foods being the biggest issue with it today.

I have not, at any point, expressed any opinion on other people's diets. Quite the contrary, I have pointed out that humans, being omnivores, can and do thrive on a wide variety of diets so I think you must be confusing me with someone else.

@Arnold

If you have to bring in mediaeval diets as a comparison to justify how good modern diets are then you’re setting the bar pretty low. And you’ve made plenty of sweeping statements including claiming that meat/dairy in diets is less problematic than plant-based foods which isn’t necessarily true unless you equate plant-based diets with eating sugar which seems to be what you’re doing and is quite frankly ludricrous.

I am setting the bar at thriving on a diet.

Thriving by most species standards means living long enough to reproduce.

In the modern west countries have life expectancies in the 70s or even 80s, an age by which you can reasonably expect to see not only your children, but your grandchildren reach adulthood.

Our diets, along with various other cultures diets, are clearly allowing us to thrive on a population wide level. Indeed globally life expectancy reached 71 recently. Humans are most definitely thriving.

Our diets, along with various other cultures diets, are clearly allowing us to thrive on a population wide level. Indeed globally life expectancy reached 71 recently. Humans are most definitely thriving.

All very interesting (and obvious!)
Not really the point of the thread though is it? I picked up on a particular point you’d made about meat vs plant based diets which is both inaccurate and relevant to this thread. You’re simply ignoring that point to try and be ‘right’ by making very obvious statements that I have not at any time disagreed with

And you’ve made plenty of sweeping statements including claiming that meat/dairy in diets is less problematic than plant-based foods which isn’t necessarily true unless you equate plant-based diets with eating sugar which seems to be what you’re doing and is quite frankly ludricrous.

I have made no such claim.

I have stated that the obesity epidemic is primarily linked to sugary foods, not meat. Sugar is a plant based food. If you disagree that sugar is the biggest problem take it up with the dietary experts who have been telling us so all over the media of recent years.

I at no point claimed all plant based foods were a problem nor that overconsumption of meat could not make a marginal difference to health.

You are reading things that are not there.

meat and dairy are not the big issues where that imperfection lies, plant based foods are.

Right so you didn’t type this then?

And you are equating plant based diets to eating sugar.

If you can’t see that those two things are not the same i’m Afraid i’m Not sure where to start.

Please quote me in full Veterinari rather than twisting my words.

I posted

No one is arguing that there is an obesity epidemic related to sugar, not meat, consumption. This does not change the fact that modern diets in the west are far better than they were say, in the medieval period, when many people lived on little more than bread. Nor does it change the fact that many people today in poorer parts of the world are subsisting on far poorer diets. It is simply not true that it is anywhere close to being one of the worst diets of any time or place. It is imperfect, but meat and dairy are not the big issues where that imperfection lies, plant based foods are.

I made specific mention of sugar being related to the obesity epidemic (I did not include high fructose corn syrup for example for brevity) and ended by stating that the biggest issue today is with plant based foods, which is clearly a reference to sugar. It is in the same paragraph.

If you wish to claim the obesity epidemic is more about meat than the plant based food sugar that is your right, but dietary experts do not appear to agree with you.