In being a bit uncertain about ds's gender neutral toilets?

[bigflowerdog]

I've just noticed that our school voted to make the toilets gender neutral. It's a school that has ages 5-18 and no designated toilets for age groups.

I'm not at all anti trans. A good friend is trans. I have reservations about this though.

We are in a position to challenge this decision as DH is a school board member (like a governor but with lots more power) and was absent for the vote.

But any gentle comments I've made here regarding the erosion of women's rights have been met with universal anger and people thinking I'm very anti trans. (I'm in the States.) Thinking here around the issue seems to be a lot more black and white.

I need some calm and balanced language that dh and I can take to the school without looking like we're trans hating bigots.

I need some calm and balanced language that dh and I can take to the school without looking like we're trans hating bigots.

I would studiously avoid any mention of the Trans thing. Giving 18YOs unsupervised access to 5YO in this way creates risk. That risk is reduced when toilets are segregated by sex.

This is the only point that should be focused on, you just want lots of evidence to back it up.

The Schools Premises Regulations 2012, state:

"Schools must provide separate sex provision for children over 8 as outlined in the Schools Premises Regulations (2012). The guidance is quite clear on this."

"Separate toilet and washing facilities must be provided for boys and girls aged 8 years and over pursuant to Regulation 4 of the School Premises (England) Regulations 2012, which falls within the exemption provided for in Schedule 22 of the Equality Act 2010."

womansplaceuk.org/mixed-sex-toilets-ins-chools/

OP is in the states, though.

If someone wants to do harm they will do it regardless of what symbols you put on a door.

Who voted?
What proportion voted against. They are the ones who would prefer single sex.
Why does it have to be all or nothing.
Can the school not be more inclusive and have some unisex and some single sex?
Privacy and dignity lies in proper choices.

If someone wants to do harm they will do it regardless of what symbols you put on a door.

What a load of shite.
And it's not just about harm, I would have been MORTIFIED to have a boy hear me wee at that age. It's also about dignity.

I was in a bar recently with mix sex toilets and it was really uncomfortable. There was only one cubicle and there was a queue of men waiting after me, I really needed a poo but ended up not going because I just couldn't do it knowing that the men would know it was me.

Why can’t there be unisex and gender specific toilets?

As a young girl (not even 10) starting my periods, I would have been mortified at sharing the toilets with 18 year old men.

"OP is in the states, though."

Sorry, didn't realise, that would complicate it depending on the state.

It was a unanimous vote of 4. DH would have made 5 but there's no way he would have been a yes.

Where we live is super liberal left and I think this is being seen as some kind of virtue signalling statement of how inclusive we are.

It's a very small school that used to be a house so not huge toilets that have lots of stalls. I need to have a look around to be sure but as they aren't gender neutral just yet I'd be a bit of a hypocrite to barge in to the boys!

If someone wants to do harm they will do it regardless of what symbols you put on a door

really stupid non-argument which deliberately fails to understand both that much harm is done opportunistically and that its not only for concern that harm may be done that we have single sex spaces.

Are they planning on putting sanitary bins in every cubicle then? Are the boys comfortable with that? Are there any girls from a conservative religious background whose religion prevents them from sharing with males? Has anyone asked the kids? What about the staff - do Male and female teachers share the same toilets? If not why not?

In a very small school situation it is very different to a large 2000 kid school. As long as they are at least a couple of cubicles with hand washing facilities and sanitary disposal in the cubicles then they were be able to meet the needs of the females. I'm actually more concerned about 18 year olds sharing with 5 year olds, they are vulnerable same sex!

I'd focus on two angles - the risk of 18 year old young adults having access to toileting 5 year olds. And the dignity angle of young girls dealing with their first periods. I think this is particularly an issue if the school has the usual US style stalls with large gaps above and below the doors and a gap around the edge of the doors.

Home school?

As PP said, safeguarding is an issue here. Not only for the small children but also for teenage girls. As a grown woman I would find it highly uncomfortable to share toilets with men, leave alone as a vulnerable young girl dealing with her first periods.

I would begin by calling them mixed-sex toilets, rather than 'gender-neutral' which is a bit meaningless.

I work in a school and in my experience no-one ever asks the kids input on anything of even the slightest consequence.

I asked a young student-teacher (can’t recall what you call them in the UK? Training to be teachers) when I started at my new school where the toilets were (as the 2 single occupancy ones for staff are always full of men taking 29 minutes for a poo). She said “we have gender-neutral ones on the second floor”. “Oh, I don’t feel comfortable using the loo with men.” And she replied “oh, it’s single occupancy”. So just virtue-signalling then.

Has there been any parent consultation? I can’t imagine many parents of young girls going through puberty would be perfectly fine with this, would they? Or at least proper consultation ought to elicit some views to give backing to your DH.

Are these typical US stalls with massive gaps between the doors and the walls??? If so, no F'ing way.
Where I've seen this in the UK, all stalls have had floor to ceiling divisions.

If someone wants to do harm they will do it regardless of what symbols you put on a door

Yes, but if you see a male going into a female only toilet, at least you have the right to challenge them.

@Beamur 4 people voted? Is this your own home?

Why the snark? I've already said it's a very small school and that it was the school board that voted. There's 5 on the board.

If you suspect I'm trolling then by all means report me.

How many stalls are in each toilet, and how many children in the school?

Just trying to understand the numbers! I thought you meant 4 pupils voted. Hence asking if it was a home school.