To change careers at nearly 40 and study law?

[Hubbel]

Ok, here goes.

BA and MA degrees from Oxbridge. Successful career in academia involving frequent international travel. Great salary, mostly loved my job.

Had children and took career break for five years. Worked on something unrelated to academia with little money but fulfilling/successful.

Stressful period and divorced ExH. Back to academia but had a very hard time finding a similar position to what I held previously. Accepted job with smaller salary and fewer responsibilities than I had 10 years ago! I feel so over qualified and under appreciated in job to the point where I think about resigning every day!

Had a couple of life changing events happen this year and just think is this it? Apart from DC I am not fulfilled in life. I have a brain but working in a job where I feel over qualified is dire… I feel my experience is wasted in this position. I have applied to many other positions but academia is not the same as it was. Jobs are very competitive and salaries have barely risen. I have had numerous interviews for better jobs with almost the same response, someone else with more experience beat me to it. On top of that I’ve lost my enthusiasm for academia which probably shows in interviews.

I am looking for something new. I want a challenge and feel I have a lot of energy and drive which is wasted where I am. I know I’ll have to retrain with years of study but don’t want to look back in another 10 years thinking I could have done/been so much more.

The pros are I have always been interested in law and have worked on law related projects. I love networking, am a deep analytical thinker and have all the experience of research, writing and managing projects etc. I want to use my brain, learn new things and feel appreciated! I want to feel I’m able to move up a company with career progression with the potential of earning more.

The cons are I currently work part-time and juggle two children and I am tired! So tired every day. But I think this is partly because my job is literally sucking the life of out of me. I’m a single parent living within commuting distance of London. It would be great to work in London but how could I possibly do the commute with school/being a single parent etc. I have a lot of life experience but I’m nearly 40, too old? Would pursuing a career in law mean I barely see my kids?

What do you think mumnetters? Should I go for it or am I mad to consider?

What support do you have for your children? What will you do to cover 13 weeks school holidays? Will you have to do it full time? Will you miss out on family time for your own fulfilment? Overall will it be worth it? Only you can tell. Write a pros and cons list and see how it goes.
To be honest you sound a bit up yourself stating that you’re overqualified for your current role. That might be factually correct but do you perhaps have a chip on your shoulder left over from your Oxbridge days. Are you always comparing yourself with others? Have you thought of writing down a list of things that you dislike about your job then seeing which ones you can change.
If you’ve thought about everything and still want to do it then your age shouldn’t be a problem and your life experiences may give you an advantage. However if you’re unhappy about other aspects of your life (the drudgery of parenting for example) you may find at the end of your training you still feel the same.
Best of luck.

I moved from something completely unrelated to a specialist professional services career at the age of 36. Early 40s now and still studying whilst working. I love it. It’s absolutely the best career move I’ve ever made.
As a PP says you won’t fit in the with trainee culture but do you want to? Socially at work I gravitate to those who are at the same stage of life as me - they’re 3-4 grades above me and that’s fine. It probably helps my progression to be honest and having more life experience makes me a safer pair hands for interesting projects than some of my peers.
I don’t have children though so can’t comment on that aspect. It is bloody hard and I have to turn down a lot of social stuff in favour of study but it’s worth it.

Good luck with whatever you do.

A lot of people have failed to mention that law degrees are quite boring. When I did mine, first year had a lot of drop outs and subject matter was a contributing fact. I've had people I've worked with start a law degree and drop out for the same reason. It's not for everyone.

You don’t need a degree in law. However unless you do a traineeship with a small local firm, the hours are very long. Some small firms do have a better work/life balance. There is also the CPS; the employed Bar. You could look at careers with them. Ditto local government. Good pensions!

OP, I tried the same and I say don't do it. I had a similar experience. I finished my PhD at 30 and wanted out of academia by the end. Law looked really appealing as a career change, but it's actually very different in practice.

I did the GDL and a brief stint in a very junior legal role before realising that it wasn't for me and then abandoned my plans to take the LPC.

Most law work involves a lot of tedious technical drafting which you will only be good at if you are an absolute grammar pedant with the mind of a copy editor.

The scope for being analytical is extremely limited compared to academia and you have to be prepared to rote learn screeds of statutes and case law as part of the training.

Also, if you are feeling overqualified in your current academic role, then any entry level law position will feel a million times more junior.

The GDL was a very expensive mistake for me and I wish I had more thoroughly considered the non academic options available for people with PhDs in my field.

I really thought applied research jobs were only available to people with PhDs in the hard sciences, but as a social scientist I am now earning a decent wage in a reasonably well paid job where I have to use the skills from my PhD every single day.

I’m a litigator and my job involves zero technical legal drafting nor do I need to be a grammar pedant. It’s horses for courses - you pick the area you are most drawn to. Though in your training contract you will have to do a spread of work.

I think the best advice you’ve been given is to test the market and see how marketable you would be. Competition for training contracts and pupillages is mad these days and I know lots of women who have done their law degree but not been able to get one and have ended up working as poorly paid paralegals for years. Like 10 years or more on paltry salaries whilst doing similar work to qualified lawyers :(

I started in private practice and am now in house and the hours are more family friendly and the salaries are not terrible by any means - well over national averages. For example my first in house job after a long period away from work with young children was £50k for a 4 day week.

I am a solicitor and would not advise this. Similar reasons to previous posters, takes ages to qualify, long hours, few part-time options... If you start at 21 you can be in a reasonable spot by the time you have young kids, as though hours are always long by that point you have more control, plus money good, but starting at 40, no way

Honestly if I was in your shoes I would become a teacher in an independent school - small classes, 18 weeks’ holidays, amazing pension, fee discount for your own kids, can get housing / live in the school community if that appeals. Your academic background will be valuable. You can do what you need for your kids as a single mum & still do something fresh & rewarding

Hubble I left the law for a variety of reasons. Trying to give a balanced view:

• you are definitely not too old. Law is one of those jobs where you’re treated like a child until you hit your 40s.
• do not pay for a course without already having a job lined up. Unless you are rich.
• it is true that law is often intellectually stimulating. But often it isn’t. I spent many hours proofreading etc.
• during your training contract / pupillage you will do a lot of boring mundane work and generally be treated like a child. If you already have good skills and experience and some pride you will find it hard.
• if you choose to become a solicitor, your boss will want to check much of your client-facing work before it’s sent out and indeed your name may be taken off your work and theirs put on. This can be very frustrating. Barrister jobs are much harder to get and involve public speaking, no idea if that’s your thing.
• it is not family friendly and your children will not thank you. If you do contentious law then there are a lot of deadlines which means some late nights. If you do non-contentious then there is a late night culture unless you go into a less prestigious area like property/employment (both of which can be good choices in fact I wish I’d gone into those) or find a small / regional firm.

My gut feeling based on your current frustrations is that unless you’re extremely lucky with the role you find, you would be disappointed with the reality of it, and that because of the academic retraining you might not waste years before discovering that. Of my intake of 20 trainee solicitors (15 female) I think only two of the women are still practicing solicitors.

That said it’s your life and it might be perfect for you. Suggest you seek out some unpaid work experience to inform your decision.

Good luck and don’t throw away what you have too quickly...

Ps I think the advice to look into teaching at a private school is good advice there are some fab jobs there

You're not automatically too old, but the successul older entrants tend to have something special to bring to the party. They may have expertise in some other area, for example. I have a relative who went into law after doing an Oxbridge Masters in biochemistry which is a booming area and in which they can talk the talk with the clients.

In law, as in most professions, there are some jobs where you have to think on your feet and others which are sheer drudgery (like domestic conveyancing). But then it's horses for courses; I've known people who were very happy in domestic conveyancing because they positively disliked analysis and research. You need to be confident that you can steer your career towards what you want to do and not what someone else wants you to do.

But as others have said it is currently ultra-competitive both academically and in effort.

OP have you thought about becoming a project manager? It'd still provide you with a new challenge, you sound organised and capable, and I think it's possible to get fairly high up fairly quickly?

I retrained at 33. I was working in a legal area for a large organisation so loads of experience , I got merits for GDL and LPC and despite applying for over 30 training contracts I didn't even get an interview.
Probable reason was age and that I only had a 2.1.
Of my LPC class of 30 people all over 30, only 2 are now lawyers.

I work for a City law firm. One child. I am quite lucky as I don't tend to work long hours (I leave at 5.30 every night, only occasionally working in the evenings, and work 4 days a week with up to 2 days at home). It's very flexible. I work for some interesting clients and about 50% of my work is generally interesting (to me at least!) and mentally challenging. But I'm senior now so I've earned it and I'm trusted. With a few discrete exceptions, I haven't experienced sexism in the workplace. I put in a lot of long hours earlier on in my career. To be honest I wouldn't fancy doing that again at this point in time, now that I have other priorities. I think you would have to really, really want to do it, if you decided to do it with kids.

@Xenia

I admit I was probably being a bit flippant but I didn’t actually say all women had to sleep their way to the top.

Sadly however I know many who did (or certainly had to flirt quite heavily / behave inappropriately to get there) which is sad because (a) most importantly no woman should be in that position and (b) it makes it harder for those that don’t want to.

In my experience the law remains a very sexist environment and I have worked in a variety of types of firm. And if it’s not the partners misbehaving it’s the clients who can be patronising (at best).

I’m quite bolshy and can put people in their place if I need to so Im not really that bothered, but not everyone is of that mindset / personality type.

OP, I also think the thread is turning into a bit of a rant about how dreadful working in the law can be. It is not all bad and there have been certain roles at certain times I really loved. You will always hear bad things about any job, but there are generally always positives too.

Now I have kids I’ve moved in house otherwise I’d never see them. I do think as someone mentioned the attrition rates for women are appalling and should be seriously considered in your position. Anecdotally I know of not one person who remained in their job after their maternity leave ended. All lasted just long enough so they wouldn’t have to repay their enhanced benefits then moved on as they had all been sidelined as a result of having children, even the real stars.

Also, I do agree that you should find something you either (a) love doing or (b) don’t mind doing but compensates you well enough for not loving it (eg with work life balance, flexibility, cash etc). Life’s too short to hate what you do for a living when you spend most of your working hours there. You are obviously bright and just need to think about what you really want from a role.

Good luck.

I'd look into the civil service. There are so many different roles and It's really family-friendly.

Steph, interesting. One of my children is in a city law firm and one is head of legal,in-house so I know the pros and cons. If this poster can start at a top firm however then they will pay for her training and she will have a very good start to move in house after even if she just uses it as a stepping stone.

Someone above said a law degree is boring. That is a huge pity - I found it really interesting. I remember aspects of it today even - eg the definition of rape always comes to mind for example and then one of my options was competition law - there is a just amount of interesting stuff on a law degree (not that this poster wants to read law as she has a degree already so would just do the conversion course).

I was not made a partner at the big firm where I worked (most people aren't, male or female and sleeping with the boss does not usually play a role in that either) but I could not be doing what I now do (my own firm) without those years in the City. it was great.

Every day practising law I wake up excited about the interesting work and I hope I can have another 20 years doing it. Actually the first thing I do is check the firm bank account and note who has paid me ove rnight (done that already today before 7am....) but that's just admin because it's my own firm and I choose to do it. However getting paid fairly good amounts for work you love which is intellectually challenging is pretty nice.

A law degree is not boring! It is absolutely fascinating and I loved it.

What type of subjects are your degrees in? Arts, sciences, humanities etc?

Unless you have a solid family support network for childcare or very wealthy and can outsource then I think this would be a very bad route to go down as a single mother in her 40's.

@Lockshunkugel Combination of science and humanities.

I'm a barrister - it's a great job for those with kids if you're at a good chambers (and therefore get enough work to pick and choose a bit). However, it's competitive to get pupillage, especially at a good chambers, and I think there might be a bit of agism, particularly if you're coming from a completely unrelated discipline (ie you will be a more attractive candidate if you're an economist or social scientist or something tangentially related to a particular legal field). Personally I would hate working for a City firm - long hours and presenteeism seem completely incompatible with a family life. You'd have to get a nanny for weeknights and accept you'd only see your kids at weekends. I couldn't do it. If you could train with the government legal service or a smaller firm I think it would be a better bet.

Solicitor here - the junior years are mind numbingly boring, lots of paper pushing and the hours are extremely unpredictable. It's not so much about the long hours because you could plan for that. It's dropping everything at the last minute because a client wants something. Juniors are absolutely expected to drop everything - we've had people cancel wedding dress fittings, partner's birthdays, etc. Those who are parents have a partner who does a 9-5 job or grandparents living next door who take the kids after school. We have Jewish colleagues who are always desperate to get home for Friday night dinner - they get home for that maybe 30% of the time at best.

As people climb up the ladder, they are extremely keen to push all the shit work and late night hours on the juniors.

However, there are a few organisations, like the government who are not so bad and are all over the flexible working stuff. But the pay is very low, especially given how much money you are required to invest to train to even get there.

Thank you so much for all of the replies. It really is fascinating to hear about all of your different personal experiences. Obviously, what works for one doesn't work for another. My inclination is to test the waters with applications as others have said and see what happens.

Sleeping my way to the top? Well, I'm single and it's been a while so why not? Joke!!

Every day practising law I wake up excited about the interesting work and I hope I can have another 20 years doing it.
@Xenia Sounds amazing and thanks for your other advice.

A few questions. I've been looking at different firms which sponsor the GDL and LPC with their training contracts starting in Sep 2022. How does it work exactly? Will they sponsor the GDL start in Sep 2020 followed by LPC in 2021 with the commitment to the training contract starting with the same firm in 2020? Does this mean I'll be potentially studying between Sep 2020-2022 & not involved in the actual law firm with long hours etc until 2022? (@Xenia - I could potentially start the GDL in Jan 2020 to avoid the new exam but this would mean covering the course without sponsorship wouldn't it?).

Is it worth applying to the Spring/Summer placement schemes? My parenting schedule is that the DC are with me mostly in term time and with their dad in most of the school hols so I'll actually be available to stay away for as long as possible/work late nights etc. But looking at the schemes they seem to be geared at final year (and young) students. Would they be suitable for me? A good way to taste corporate life? Would I actually get accepted on any of these?

I do find working in London again appealing and from experience think I would be suited to a bigger organisation rather than a smaller one. But because of child-care could not do this in the long term. But I see some of the London firms also have regional offices where I live. Would this be beneficial to apply for the London firms that cover many UK areas? There is a lot of mention of city firms which I do find quite exciting but I guess there are solicitors all over the country who have never worked in London. Is there a big benefit to experiencing London?

I am put off by the comments on never seeing my children in the week With breakfast club/after school club I could work between about 8.30-5pm in London and longer hours locally but this wouldn't be enough in London would it? Without a nanny etc. But locally it could work?

If I have to wait until Sep 2020 to start the GDL, anything else I can do in the meantime in relation to experience? I mentioned I worked on a law related subject and published on that area. But obviously nothing on those who have actually studied law. And I guess the deadlines for training contracts are now so I couldn't do anything else before applying anyway.

I'll continue applying for other positions in academia too and see where it all goes. The prospect of changing direction does feel very exciting though.

I career changed into law in my 30s and have had children all the way through. It is long hours (I've rarely left the office before 10 the last month) but with those hours comes a lot of flexibility. You do need rock solid childcare though. My recommendation is to start the academic training part-time. If you can manage that on top of a full-time job, you probably can't manage the job.

There certainly are masogonistic gits but it's getting less acceptable and the profession is trying to change. Some firms are better than others on this.

I love my job and I do get to use my brain everyday. I do commercial contracts and even then I don't think I spend much of my time on pedantic drafting issues. I like the job because I spend my time problem solving.

The parts I find hard are it can be relentless and there's a constant pressure on billing, chargeable hours and business development that distracts from the actual day job. Similar pressures in any job though - it depends what makes you tick.

I would say that having to grit your teeth and do 'basic' work can be difficult. Trainees do what they're told and a good firm will give as much responsibility as you can handle. That said, the profession is obsessed with PQE (how many years since you qualified) and I have found myself having to prove time and time again (to every new senior lawyer and sometimes to junior ones) that I can work at more than my level of PQE (which gets frustrating). There's little value placed on work experience pre-law.

I'm one of the women leaving private practice mid-career and moving in house but it's not because of the hours. It's because they'll let me wear jeans everyday I want to be closer to the business than I am at the moment and be able to see my advice through. It does mean I have to start again with proving myself as yet again, no one cares about the 10+ years of experience I had before I qualified!

No your London hours wouldn’t work IME. I’m in house and in London, so more friendly hours than private practice and I never leave the office before 6pm. My core hours are 9.00 to 5.30pm. When I was in private practice I was usually there by 8.30 and didn’t leave before 8pm but more often 10pm ish