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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that if you have the funds to pay for your care home needs then you absoloutley should?

712 replies

BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 31/10/2019 07:43

Interesting chat with a friend the other day about the extortionate costs of care homes and how if you live in social housing/rental and are on benefits then the government will pay for your care yet if you have "worked hard all your life and want to leave something for your kids" you are made to sell your home / use savings to pay for your care.

Friend is of the opinion that everyone who requires a care home should have it paid for by the government. So essentially a "hand out" yet also is of the opinion that those on benefits are getting "hand outs" and looks on them with scorn.

My personal opinion is that if you have the means to fund your own care home needs then yes; you absoloutley should pay for some or all of that. Why should the government fork out millions for every care home resident in the country so that a vast amount of them can then hand their properties and extensive savings down to their children?

It's simply not viable to fund 100% of care home needs across the country and if you are the kind of person who gets smug about "paying my way all my life" to the tune of living mortgage free in a 300k plus home with vast savings then you should be happy to continue "paying your way" til the end.

I also pointed out to her that as she will be funding her own care she will likely have more say in where she goes.

The end result was we both agreed the best solution was to swerve the care home altogether Grin but I wondered whether I was BU to expect someone who can afford to pay for their care to actually pay for their care?

OP posts:
Mishappening · 31/10/2019 23:34

See above.....my top-up fee that I have to pay for my OH is £900 pw. The real cost of the care is over £1200 pw.

SSD's maximum payment for anyone in any circumstances for a nursing home is £573 pw. Find me a nursing home that charges £573 and I will show you a dump not fit for a human being.

My OH is assessed as requiring NH care, and SSD agree that the £573 applies to him - but they then want him to pay £250 from his pensions - I do not object to that in principle.

What I object to is the fact that there are no homes that charge the SSD ceiling payment. The amount that SASD have available is nowhere near enough to pay for decent care.

One of the homes they sent me to look at (and it was one that would still have required my OH's contribution plus a top-up from me) had a vacant room for my dear life's partner which was basically in a basement, the one high up window had an iron external staircase running across it (great view to end your life with), the floors were freezing lino, the bed was an ugly hospital bed, the walls were brick painted gloss yellow; the narrow corridors were cluttered up with buckets, trolleys etc......I could go on - it broke my heart.

Where he is the whole place is carpeted and warm; the room looks like an ordinary bedroom; the adjustable bed looks like something that you would have in your own home; drugs are kept in his wardrobe in a locked box (no drug rounds like a hospital); there are quiet lounges and a library; a bar with a TV where people can socialise; lots of kind staff who are gentle and kind and will do anything for him. He is treated with love and respect and I will bankrupt myself for him to stay there.

Alsohuman · 31/10/2019 23:43

Heartbreaking @Mishappening. So very sorry you’re going through this. 💐

Paintedmaypole · 31/10/2019 23:47

Excellent post webuiltthisbuffet From my experience the vast majority of people in nursing homes are ill, with a variety of long term illnesses. Just because a majority of them are older it doesn't mean that their health needs should be dealt with differently from those of a younger person. I still feel that very few people are in nursing homes for purely social reasons. The division between health and social care is artificial.

MarshaBradyo · 31/10/2019 23:52

Are pp saying these people should be within NHS care

How can the NHS stretch to take on the huge ageing population if they are classed as ill. It can barely cope now.

Paintedmaypole · 31/10/2019 23:56

I am so sorry mishappening. The stupid people saying "their family should look after them" should read your post. My Mum lived to be 97. My brother and I helped her for many years. For the last 3 years she had to go into a Nursing home. We visited every day. She needed 2 people to hoist her, was completely deaf even with hearing aid, very imobile, needed dressings doing,had a severe tremor and was eventually very confused. We did feel guilty but there was no other choice. Some people have no idea. People in her nursing home were in a terrible state. One lady shouted constantly day and night.

Paintedmaypole · 01/11/2019 00:01

Yes, I am saying it should all come within NHS and a way of funding it should be found. A national system and not local authorities. Social care's historic roots are in the poor law not the health service. It is not fit for purpose in modern society where people are kept alive for a long time with chronic illnesses. They actually ARE ill, not "classed as ill"

MarshaBradyo · 01/11/2019 00:03

How would you fund it? Who pays more?

Paintedmaypole · 01/11/2019 00:03

The NHS is for everyone cradle to grave. I don't like the concept of questioing whether it should "take on" the ageing population. I do think we should question what is treated though and not artificially prolong life

Paintedmaypole · 01/11/2019 00:06

It would have to be either some form of taxation or an extension of compulsory national insurance. People with private pensions would continue to pay tax.

MarshaBradyo · 01/11/2019 00:07

It is a huge problem. Societies worldwide are crippling under the same issue of ageing population becoming far too heavy.

Btw you don’t have to “quote“ whatever.

MarshaBradyo · 01/11/2019 00:09

Some form of taxation for whom? Who will take the hit in your view, you only have to look at the who will you vote for thread to see every level is at a limit psychologically. Bottom had enough, middle squeezed, top would leave.

LemonPrism · 01/11/2019 00:23

What £1k a week is ok when the staff are paid fuck all? I think not

LemonPrism · 01/11/2019 00:24

I do kind of think, why did people save £100k to help their kids and others did fuck all but they're left in the same way? Especially when some have paid tax and some not

OhTheRoses · 01/11/2019 07:01

My grandma was a wonderful woman. Clever, witty, hard working. She ran a farm single handed in the war, was a fabulous horse woman and a crack shot. She worked until she was 70.

I don't think many people understand the ravages of alzheimers because often people who develop it are very old and have other illnesses and the disease rarely runs its full course.

At 70 granny became forgetful. That lasted about 5 years getting a little worse each year. From forgetting the gas man was coming to forgetting her daughter's name. By the 2nd or 3rd year she needed someone always to look after her but she had grandad and mother visited every other day.

In years 5 to 10 she forgot everyone's bame and who they were completely, where her home was and became belligerant. Grandad had stolen her purse, etc. She coukd not by this stage make a cup of tea let alone a meal and coukd not have gone out alone. At the end if this period grandad was over 80. Towards the end of it there was some respite care. Initially a couple of days at a care home from 9-4 but she started "escaping" and staff couldn't cope. This then became two weeks in every 7 in a funded geriatric mh ward in a superb unit. At this stage she became an escapist and more than once the police brought her home from the village in the middle of the night just in her nightie. The unit that housed the respite care was closed and mother wasntold to find her a nursing home. The family fought on the basis that if she'd needed a specialist clinical nhs unit five years previously there was no argument to prevail that she did not need one now. She did get a place in a specialist nhs geriatric mh unit.

When she went there, 10 years into the disease, she had already had a tia or three. On arrival she no longer knew who her family members were and had no memory of the near past, ie, last 30 years. She did not remember her name and could not function independently, ie, could not dress herself or remember mealtimes. At that stage she was still walking and pacing.

Mother and grandad visited daily because they lived her so much. During this period I had two children but all mother's time was taken up caring for her parents.

During the final five years grannie lost all recognition, forgetting she had been married or had a child, her parents. She forgot how to toilet and became doubly incontinent, she forgot how to speak, how to walk and then how to swallow. Mother and grandad fed her for as long as they could - she used a sippy cup for the last of her years. She died after 5 years. She was 4.5 stone. Mother lost five years of her life and grandad died just a year later, broken and exhausted.

Nobody on this earth can persuade me such care is not clinically required and shoukd not be funded. Grannie had such care 1995 to 2000. She would not today.

During the last election campaign my MP and I had a ding dong over May's dementia tax and the definitions of clinical and social need. I have voted Conservative at every election since 1979. I did not vote Conservative in 2015 such was the unacceptable nature of what was said in the campaign.

kateluvscats · 01/11/2019 07:25

Personally I think of the accommodation meals etc separate from the healthcare provided and as such the healthcare should be free but the accommodation, heating, meals etc should be paid for. These things would be paid for in our own home.

OhTheRoses · 01/11/2019 07:37

Don't have a problem with that view Kate. Indeed unless people are on benefits I don't see why there isn't a charge for hospital food. However, having waited for a blood test at my local hospital the other day I discovered a latte in a paper cup was £3.25 and a small bottle of water £1.45!

MarshaBradyo · 01/11/2019 07:45

Grandmother was wonderful (of course) worked, independent but spent the last ten years of her life in a nursing home as she was not present enough to live alone as my other dgm did until the end of her life. She was loved, visited but it’s not unusual to be in that situation. Ten years is a huge amount of funding that cannot be covered.

Not many UK people pay private health insurance but even that doesn’t cover chronic illness.

There was an article on the demographic time bomb that was good. Showing the huge increase in old age segment, with age-related illness. Actually it makes me really worried for my children and their dc.

MarshaBradyo · 01/11/2019 07:48

Looking further out, the 85 and overs will make up 7.4pc of the population by 2065, up from 2.4pc today and 0.7pc in 1965

The Telegraph

Bluddyhateful · 01/11/2019 07:49
  • We need clinics here as they have in Switzerland! They will never allow it as too many people are too fond of keeping people alive in order to fleece them of their savings. I know it's expensive to go over there but a lot of people would prefer a choice in the matter I'm sure and this is being denied. Things needs to change. Attitudes need to change. Sadly it won't happen in the UK It's not something you hear much about on the tv either!*

Perhaps you were joking but this is quite hurtful to those of us caring for sick people. My mother has Alzheimer’s, is doubly incontinent, can’t speak, walk or feed herself. But I love her and when she sees me her eyes light up. We laugh together. We sing together. Disabled people are still people, and the solution to them living longer is better care, not killing them.

larrygrylls · 01/11/2019 07:57

The whole point of a welfare system is to provide a safety net to those who cannot afford the basics. It is the mark of a civilised society.

I think that a basic (but acceptable) level of care should be provided by the state to those who cannot afford it. Luxury care homes, however, should not be state funded. That gives people an incentive to work.

In any benefits system, there are those who take advantage of it. However, the alternative of denying basic benefits to this in need (e.g the NHS to smokers or the obese) is probably worse.

In general, large inheritance is a means of perpetuating wealth inequality. I am all for allowing people to enrich themselves through hard work, but creating family dynasties, less so.

OhTheRoses · 01/11/2019 08:07

I think one may have to be sensible. If I were to go the way of grannie that's probably £1500 a week on today's money. £75k per annum. £450k over five years, £900k over 10. Let's hope it doesn't happen because that's a lot of money.

I think a fairer way of funding would be to cap it at a quarter of a person's estate rather than everything down to the last £100k. That would mean the person with £50k would pay £12 5k and the person with £1m £250k.

I also think care/nursing homes should be state run on a quasi nationalised basis to ensure quality of care is equal for all, and high quality for all.

MarshaBradyo · 01/11/2019 08:25

900k is a lot but won’t be that unusual for a ten year funded place.

No idea how many are reaching what they need to pay in for pension even to live a long life but it’ll be hard for some. Those asking for everyone to pay a potential huge hit in advance for care I wonder how.

living long life pension article this is money article

OhTheRoses · 01/11/2019 08:41

You make a good point Marsha. I am well pensioned or will be. My pension will cover more than half those fees, dh's more so it will not be so bad.

But again the people who will really suffer financially are the squeezed middle. In the SE those with a combined income of about £60 to £70k - probably an occupational pension of £5k to £6k each and a nice house worth about £450-£500k. Who have worked so hard, been squeezed until the pips pop and then see all they hoped to pass on disappear.

ArcheryAnnie · 01/11/2019 08:44

It is barbaric if you have loved that home for years and want the proceeds to go to your children, having worked for that all your life.

Imagine this conversation:
Me, to Estate Agent: I'd like somewhere new to live, please. My old house no longer suits my needs.
Estate Agent: Certainly, madam. How about this place?
Me: Excellent! I will move there shortly. Please arrange for state benefits to pay for it. Oh, and please also put my old house on the market, and give the proceeds of the sale to my children.
Estate Agent: ...I'm sorry, madam, that's not the way it works.
Me: You BARBARIAN! I loved that old house for years! I want the proceeds of that sale to go to my children! But I still need a new place to live, so someone else will have to pay for that.

Trewser · 01/11/2019 08:48

If children want an inheritance then why not move in with your aged parent and care for them at home, paying for expert care to come in when needed? Otherwise you cant really complain that your parents house has to be sold to cover cost.