To think that if you have the funds to pay for your care home needs then you absoloutley should?

[BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz]

Interesting chat with a friend the other day about the extortionate costs of care homes and how if you live in social housing/rental and are on benefits then the government will pay for your care yet if you have "worked hard all your life and want to leave something for your kids" you are made to sell your home / use savings to pay for your care.

Friend is of the opinion that everyone who requires a care home should have it paid for by the government. So essentially a "hand out" yet also is of the opinion that those on benefits are getting "hand outs" and looks on them with scorn.

My personal opinion is that if you have the means to fund your own care home needs then yes; you absoloutley should pay for some or all of that. Why should the government fork out millions for every care home resident in the country so that a vast amount of them can then hand their properties and extensive savings down to their children?

It's simply not viable to fund 100% of care home needs across the country and if you are the kind of person who gets smug about "paying my way all my life" to the tune of living mortgage free in a 300k plus home with vast savings then you should be happy to continue "paying your way" til the end.

I also pointed out to her that as she will be funding her own care she will likely have more say in where she goes.

The end result was we both agreed the best solution was to swerve the care home altogether but I wondered whether I was BU to expect someone who can afford to pay for their care to actually pay for their care?

My dad also pays full whack. A war veteran who paid his way and more and still paying because he had the audacity to live to 97 with modest savings.
I try not to get angry but I can't help it sometimes! It's all completely screwed.
There really is little to look forwards to getting older!

Have said several times we need to be paying for our own care as soon as we start work.

Some of us will just downsize and spend if losing it anyway, others like me will do all we can to stay in our homes and get by with as little help as possible. The state will have even less to spend on care without some being ripped off to subsidise others. It’s already crumbling, we need to start paying now.

I have every intention of depriving myself of my assets then if I don’t die I’ll hopefully be able to remember to take my own life. I don’t want to go into a care home and would like to help my kids out. Far from all people claiming benefits are spongers but some are And will have paid virtually nothing into the system (but physically able to do so). It’s very difficult.

Carrotvan
Yes, this has been our experience too. MIL was briefly in a care home in Shropshire and self funders were charged about 30% more than the Council paid.
I think that is a really shitty way if bridging the funding shortfall.
It was a rubbish care home too, despite charging £900 a week. Not enough staff, poor food and strange men coming into her room (see not enough staff). Very upsetting experience all round.
She's elsewhere now.

My grandma saved hard to leave something for her children and made her wishes very clear that she did not want to go into a home under any circumstances but instead to die at home with dignity with her family.

Social Services took that right away from her by forcing her into a care home against her will and she was left to foot the bill.

She shouldn't have been made to pay to be in that prison she didn't want to be in when she had a house she desperately wanted to live in which was sold against her wishes because some strangers (ss) who didn't know her decided it was best.

She had one fall at home and an ambulance was called by a care worker who she paid to visit her each day, she'd hurt her elbow and whilst in the hospital she fell asleep and slid off a seat and hit her head and was never aloud home in case somehow this was to all happen again.
Very expensive fall that was it cost her her home, her savings and her dignity as her wishes were overridden, even though every day she had family calling in and she was happy at home.

So no I don't think people should be forced to pay unless it's their choice to be there.

My family member was crippled with arthritis and knackered hips/knees. Was sitting in her kitchen all day alone and most of the night as in agony. Buggar all help, ended up being taken in and put in a home whilst waiting for treatment.Home taken off her so quick no time to think properly or get the best deal. Money eaten up in two years and now she’s terrified as not sure she’ll be able to stay where she is. She has nothing.It was a wrench leaving her home, moving again would be incredibly hard.I still think if she had had decent care in the first place and her care paid for she could have gone back to her own home and garden. She’s now stuck in a tiny room with a locked window.

My dad hates his home but years of him living alone was taking its toll on him and his children; with the best will in the world we couldn't have him living at home on his own any longer. It's horrible and we feel guilty but it does get to the stage where you just can't carry on anymore! I would hate to put my children through what my elderly parents have put us through but who can predict anything? Living longer to your 90s with dementia; wouldn't wish it on my worst enemies!

It’s nobody’s choice to be in a care home, sometimes it’s the only safe place to be.

My parents didn’t subsidise anyone else’s care. There’s a waiting list for the few good care homes here and they only accept self funders.

We need clinics here as they have in Switzerland! They will never allow it as too many people are too fond of keeping people alive in order to fleece them of their savings.
I know it's expensive to go over there but a lot of people would prefer a choice in the matter I'm sure and this is being denied.
Things needs to change. Attitudes need to change. Sadly it won't happen in the UK
It's not something you hear much about on the tv either!

Who do you think should pay? The young families coming up who’ll never afford to get on the property ladder at all? Yes that sounds fair

What about the young families who are the children and grandchildren of the people in question? It's a vicious circle as, if the elderly were entitled to the same NHS free-at-the-point-of-need care as the young are, then many more of them would have assets to leave to their own families, who would then not have the same struggles to get on the housing ladder.

There seem to be a lot of assumptions on here that people are greedily eyeing up their elderly parents and salivating over the thought of scoring a big inheritance; but don't most people WANT to be able to help their children and grandchildren by leaving them an inheritance, once they've had a nice life themselves and are approaching the end of it?

Many of these 'greedy' adult children will also have been penalised at the other end of their adult lives with horrendous university fees which will dog them for decades, not to mention how much they'll have to pay to ever buy a house of their own. The way things are going, in a generation or two's time, it will be the norm for the vast majority of elderly people not to have anything left with which to pay any care home fees at all.

I think some people are naturally more frugal and don't want to be wasteful then are penalised

Webuiltthisbuffet, that was one heck of a post.

but don't most people WANT to be able to help their children and grandchildren by leaving them an inheritance, once they've had a nice life themselves and are approaching the end of it?

Well of course they do. But that doesn’t mean it’s realistic. Long lives, long retirement periods, lots of cars, all cost money.

Care not cars

For some perspective, most people don't end up needing nursing care in a care home at all.

How likely are you to need nursing care?
The ONS estimatess_ that, based on the 2011 census, the portion of the UK population aged over 65 grew by 11% between 2001 and 2011. Despite this, the numbers in care homes only rose by 0.3% in this period.
The study estimates that in 2011 3.2% of the over 65 population were receiving nursing care in a care home.

The problem I have is that if someone is terminally ill with dementia or a similar illness, they conceivably may have to use up all their life savings and sell their house to fund their care.
If that same person was terminally ill with cancer, they would get all their treatment in hospital or ultimately a hospice, for free.
That doesn't seem fair to me.

Dementia v Cancer . What a way things have gone! It's sickening really and completely unfair. I keep saying it, but I really do not want to get older!

Don't worry if the same government gets in again we will probably be able to pass on tax breaks or lump sums to our DC for voluntary euthinsia. I can see that being a thing.

The numbers being more dependent are rocketing.Surely nursing care figures will be rocketing too. Medicine is keeping ill people alive longer.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/care-home-demand-soars-86-two-decades-elderly-lancet-a7895046.html%3famp

Euthanasia isn't without its problems despite my earlier rants! Too many too list but lots of red tape would be needed to stop abuse.
The cost in Switzerland is about ten k I believe? Someone could make a mint , but care homes won't wasn't it to be law of course. It's too controversial!
Tough call.

OK - when it is not happening to you it all seems so simple. But let me assure you it is not.

My OH has had PD for 10 years. I have worked my tripe out trying my best to care for him - weathering the bouts of paranoia, and the steady physical decline. Then he fell and had surgery to his femur - and now he is immobile, incontinent, weighing in at 42kg and at risk of pressure sores. He required non-stop 24 hour care; and I tried everything to keep him with me at home, but all the care options I tried were unsatisfactory; and he was frightened and anxious and at physical risk.

So....he needed a nursing home. SSD pointed me in the direction of places that had me in tears as I left - under no circumstances was I going to allow my life's partner and father of my children to go anywhere near these utterly dreadful places. So I researched and found a wonderful nursing home - purpose-built, full of loving carers and people whose job is to expand the residents' lives as much as possible - beautiful gardens to look out on.

Now to the finances. SSD assess my OH as having to contribute about £250 pw from his pensions - fine - makes perfect sense and is entirely fair. But this pays less than a quarter of the real weekly cost of the home - yes, we are looking at £1250 ++ per WEEK. SSD will make a small contribution - about £250 pw - so I have to find what is laughingly called a "top-up" of around £900 per week.

I do not have this money. So I will have to eat up all my savings (his have already been spent on his care at home) and these will last about one year. Then.....I will have to sell my home - I have no idea where I will go, but I will have no home. Rent a room maybe - I just do not know.

Not only have I essentially lost my life's partner, but I will lose my home too.

I absolutely understand that there is no money tree; although I do get cross when I hear about other huge wastes of public money. But there has to be some recognition that people as desperately unwell (and terminally ill) as my poor OH need care - and not only that, they need QUALITY care. In a civilised society we cannot allow our sick and disabled members - many of whom, like my OH, have served society well - to be placed in the sort of care that was offered to my OH. Nor should people like me finish up homeless.

Some serious re-thinking and policies are desperately needed, but no government is prepared to grasp the nettle.

I absolutely endorse that we should make a fair contribution - I do not endorse the idea of people like me who have been dealt a shit hand by fate being faced with financial ruin in order to obtain decent care for a loved-one.

but don't most people WANT to be able to help their children and grandchildren by leaving them an inheritance, once they've had a nice life themselves and are approaching the end of it?

Well of course they do. But that doesn’t mean it’s realistic. Long lives, long retirement periods, lots of cars, all cost money.

But we aren't talking about people needing extra funding for more years of general living, or for nice luxuries that they may want to enjoy their later lives with. It would be a very selfish, heartless person who would begrudge their parents using their life savings or releasing equity in their homes to pay for the sports car or the world cruise that they've always dreamed of. It's quite another thing for them to be forced to sell their houses as a direct result of their misfortune to suffer very poor health towards the end of their lives.

I think a lot of people have some very ageist inbuilt ideas in their heads that elderly people all get dementia at the end of their lives and they're then basically a sub-human burden from the time it inevitably takes hold until they die. Just because it mainly affects the elderly, many elderly people don't ever suffer from it and it isn't just an extreme case of going 'do-lally' - it's a serious illness of the exact kind that the so-called 'cradle-to-grave' NHS was specifically set up to treat. Elderly people's lives and health aren't intrinsically of less value than those of younger people.

I know there are a lot of calls on the NHS's budget, but that's no reason to single out elderly people with illnesses for abandonment. School budgets are stretched to breaking right now, but can you imagine how outrageous it would be if, instead of unavoidable cutbacks being made across the board, a decision was made that black children, or those living in Northamptonshire or those with surnames beginning with a J would no longer be entitled to free education - or at the very least, their parents would be assessed and expected to pay for it themselves if they owned their own home or earned more than a certain amount, when all children who didn't fall into any of these arbitrary categories would be given it free without any question or requirement to justify their inability to pay for it themselves?

Elderly people aren't some kind of weird wild beasts - they're just originally-young people who've lived for a number of decades. Why should they be denied the right to spend their own money as they wish - i.e. to pass it down and help their families - just because they get an illness, when nobody would consider for a moment checking to see how 'rich' a 20yo with diabetes or a 40yo having an ectopic pregnancy is before deciding if the NHS will fund the healthcare treatment they need.

I wonder if, as well as ageism, it's also the double whammy of the institutionalised top-down discrimination against people with mental rather than physical health conditions at play.

It is so hard, without a doubt and heart breaking in many cases. But the size of the ageing population plus the way we live longer but not always healthier is a huge unsustainable burden. If we face population decrease it’ll get worse before it improves. There’s no easy answer.

If talking about contributions how many can find that in payments, so many can’t get together a decent private pension to start with, let alone a bigger chunk for care.

The horrible thing is for many selling an asset to get better care won’t be an option. I’d take selling over not having the choice, for my parents too if they come to need it.

A lot of people are saying self funders pay more than council paid residents. This isn’t always true. A lot of people who are paid for by the council ALSO have relatives who pay a TOP UP fee. This bring it up to the same total amount of a self funded resident. This top up fee can be hundreds of pounds a week. Council fees alone rarely cover the cost of a care home placement.

NO my parents have worked hard all there lives no fancy cars or holidays there house is there pride and joy they would have to sell it
There friends have squander every penny they have earned on things like plasma tele when they first came out cost thousand the wife has work mainly cash in hand and the have done equity release on there house. Bought lots of random shit cars,staic caravan (now worth nothing)and 3/4 holidays cruises a year.
they would after contributing fuck all and squanding what they have get it funded . My parents wouldn't so basically the more you put in the harder you work the less you get.
You are better off blowing the lot and you will get funded.