Should CM be considered as part of income

[SnowJon]

Should Child Maintenance be included when claiming benefits?

Example child maintenance is being paid to the resident carer. Why should that parent then be enabled to claim further benefits like Free school meals etc? Is that not what the cm is for?

The system is screwed in my eyes

@Meercatsarecats

How much is enough then for it not to be lousy?

An nrp pays 12% after tax for one child so has 88% of income for their own living expenses. I'm pretty sure most rps spend a great deal more than 12% of their income on their children. So a more equitable split for it not to be "lousy".

Enough would be half of what is actually costs to raise a child.
Which as you can now see is more than 46 a week.
Cms figures state 16% Of nrp earnings for 2 children.
Which leaves him with 84% left to spend on himself plus 100% of what you earn.
How many single mothers do you think only spend 16percent of their earnings on their children?
I can guarantee you now I spend a much higher proportion than that.
What percent of his earnings more than 84 would your partner needs to keep in your household for to not feel so bitter?
90%, 100%, if 2 kids can live off 800 a month why can't you and your partner?
You've not still not explained how it's any of your business.

You can’t say that a NRP who has the child 52-102 nights per year has anywhere near as much of any of those costs as the other RP for the other 300 days of a year. They do not, it’s simple maths. What it costs you to house 2 children for 2 weekends a month is a small fraction of what it costs the RP.

and from experience and talking to other parents and what is said on MN, NRP rarely have an entire set of anything at their house because they already provide maintenance and therefore will not buy another coat when RP already has one for the child. RP and NRP do not tend to have entire sets of separate school uniform, most of the time the RP provides it all and perhaps the initial outlay was split in half

Also in a new couple living with the NRP, you get his 85% earnings to keep, plus 100% of your own. The RP often spends all their earnings on their DC

£400 a month /2 children /31 days is £6.45 per child. If you think you can feed, clothe, house and look after / children on that OP then you crack on.

From our side we pay significantly more than that. + pocket money + school trips + holidays + activities + the majority of clothing and tech. And you know what? We expect to.

And they're not my children. But they are "adequately" looked after, after maintenance +++. And we both chip in.

You need to either get on board with this or get out. This is not a reasonable argument

The way you need to see this OP is that these poor stepchildren of yours are like a timeshare flat in Spain. You don’t live in it all year round but you have to pay to maintain it
Life isn’t fair but you chose to get with this man, you should just accept that this is part of his life

Also please explain why you need more money to live off than his 2 children
Please

NO absolutely not! It was an absolute disaster for women and children when it used to be.

When I first split from ex this was the case, the benefits system was then and is even MORE so now totally inflexible and incapable of accounting for regular changes to income.

My ex didn’t pay cm regularly or fully but the benefits system if there were ANY evidence of him paying ANYTHING assumed he did! Took months to prove he hadn’t at which point he’d make a nominal payment and that’d mess me up all over again!

The money he was SUPPOSED to pay was deducted penny for penny bar the first £20 (ha!) from my benefits and the result was I was really struggling. It meant I regularly went without food, essential clothes and heated my home only when dd was home to save money. It was bloody awful!

“Example child maintenance is being paid to the resident carer. Why should that parent then be enabled to claim further benefits like Free school meals etc? Is that not what the cm is for?” Again NO!

Cm levels are woefully inadequate anyway not coming CLOSE to 50% of costs of the child in the vast majority of cases.

In addition any benefits whether money or in kind that the rp and CHILD receives is part of the income that is the rp half of covering costs to raise the child.

Your idea is frankly disgusting, do you have any idea how poor a family needs to be to GET fsm etc? And you want to penalise these CHILDREN more?!

They’re already struggling in the school holidays and we’re seeing the return of diseases like rickets because of attitudes like yours.

“Anyone who begrudges children of split parents not living in poverty because of this set up is a massive wanker IMO.” Yep!!

“Seems wrong in my eyes cos this wouldn't be available if still together” if they were still together in the vast majority of cases that would mean the now nrp is contributing much more to the costs of the child.

“The RP can abuse and control what's best for the child when in fact is best for them to line their own pocket.” ODFOD!

A family that is poor enough to be receiving benefits and fsm is NOT lining ANY pockets! Don’t be so utterly heartless and ridiculous!

“What a load of bitter bullshit” agreed, I too am thinking op is a new wife/partner to an nrp who begrudges whatever nrp pays FOR THEIR CHILD/REN.

As for “The maintenance is being paid” how much?

£400 for 2 kids is roughly £6 a day each.

How old are they? Are they in childcare?

For where you/they live is that REALLY enjoying to cover 50% of

Additional rent/mortgage costs so they have bedrooms
Additional council tax costs because larger home needed
Their costs of gas, electric, water
Groceries, not just food and drink but also cleaning products, loo roll, toiletries etc
Their clothes and shoes, not just school uniform but also non school clothes.
Transport
Furnishings for them, beds, drawers, wardrobes, desks, bookcases, chairs, plus things like bedding, towels, crockery, cutlery...
Books and school equipment
Tech equipment (essential now for them to be able to fully engage with education)
Development - books, toys, hobbies, exercise, socialising...

I very much doubt £400pcm for 2 is 50% of those costs

Based on my costs (and I live in a VERY cheap part of the country) if dd were a primary aged child now:

Additional rent/mortgage costs so they have bedrooms - £100 extra pcm min compared to 1 bed places, even more if I were in a houseshare without having dc.
Additional council tax costs - because larger home needed - extra £25 pcm
Their costs of gas, electric, water - 1/3 of my costs would be £40 in winter
Groceries, not just food and drink but also cleaning products, loo roll, toiletries etc 1/3 of this would be £60pcm
Their clothes and shoes, not just school uniform but also non school clothes - looking at a VERY old budget I used to allocate £40 a month to dds clothes and shoes. I didn’t actively spend it every month but what I didn’t spend was put aside in a savings account for the next time that she needed shoes as these are not cheap. And that’s NOT accounting for inflation
Transport - again looking at old budget was £40ish pcm which was £10 pw for a seasonal bus ticket. That ticket is now £12.50pw and that’s only the cheapest one available for our area. So that’s £54 pcm
Furnishings for them, beds, drawers, wardrobes, desks, bookcases, chairs, plus things like bedding, towels, crockery, cutlery... hard to quantify as these are occasional costs but I’d say at least £15 pcm would be sensible to account for
Books and school equipment - again looking at old budget I used to set £15 pcm aside
Tech equipment (essential now for them to be able to fully engage with education) again occasional cost so hard to pin down but I’d say at least £10 pcm
Development - books, toys, hobbies, exercise, socialising... - looking at old budget I’d set aside £7.50 per week for this which is £32 pcm approx and again not accounting for inflation.

So based on those figures that’s £391 for one child based on figures from 10 years ago! And that is absolute basics! AND doesn’t account for additional costs in school holidays and doesn’t account for childcare costs. Nor does it include haircuts, attending others birthdays, school trips, mobile phone, broadband...

So no I really don’t think £200 per child is anywhere near adequate.

“As it is I would rather see some people getting too much than any child not getting enough” exactly!

“The hypocrisy is frightening though with regards CM. All the people whinging about their maintenance cut if NRP moves on with somebody with kids. The NRP household budget would increase with extra people living in them” how on EARTH is that hypocritical?! Why should an nrp pay EVEN LESS maintenance just because they live with SOMEONE ELSE’S child/ren? That child/ren are the financial and legal responsibility of their original parents NOT the nrp. Why should the nrps original children suffer because of a choice the nrp makes? That makes NO sense!

As for 50/50 residency the vast majority of nrps who are reluctant to pay cm are ALSO the types that take sod all interest in their kids! My ex hasn’t bothered seeing dd in nearly 8 years!

“You clearly have an anti-RP agenda here.” I think that’s letting op off FAR too lightly I think it’s an anti poor CHILDREN agenda.

I don't think anyone has answered the question why is it ok for a parent to spend on my 16% of their income on their children whilst him and his partner get to live off 100% of her wage and 84% of his.
My ex, when the cms could be bothered to enforce payments even though I had had to pay them to do it, paid only 10% of his take home pay.
He and his new partner live off 90% of his wage, 100% of hers plus all her kids fathers pay maintenance so they get that too.

Over a certain value yes

£400 a month for two children and you're fucking objecting? Not having dc yourself doesn't make anyone that ignorant they assume that covers the cost. Can you actually count and do basic addition and shit op?

@emilybrontescorsett

I would suggest the reason would be because more household Bill's? But if the RP gets a partner does that not counter act it?

Thanks for raising that double standard op. When the rp cohabits with a new partner, the partners income is taken into account for any benefits, with the assumption the partner should financially support their step children. It should be exactly the same for the nrps new partner.

What is your salary, your partners salary, and how many days a year do you have them? And I'll let you know.

Oh, and how old are dc so I know whether to include your share of childcare?

What percentage of your partners earnings less than 16 do You think his children are entitled to op?
And again why is it your business?
And without kids I wouldn't need school uniforms a 2 bed house or childcare.
I wouldn't need a car either because I could live in one of the lovely new one bedroom apartments that have just been built right opposite my workplace.
My ex would need to pay me over 1k a month to make up for all the earnings I lose by ME being the main carer to OUR child.
More if you factored in the promotions I've missed out on.
As it is he gives me nothing.
On the plus side he's never shacked up with a woman as bitter and resentful as you are so I've got that to be grateful for.

This is my point mothers taking the piss.

Yep, still sounding bitter. The only person who seems obsessed with money on this thread op is you. Every single one of your other posts are also about money. You sound really angry that father's are expected to support their own children, have you asked yourself why?

Fathers should financially support their children I agree what I cant abide is the system.

Feckless fathers and mothers abusing the system and using children as weapons is what I cant abide.

I get £26 a month, from the CMS, taken out of his 'benefits' when I have a court document stating that he is working. Apparently this is not proof that he is working... not sure how a court document can be discounted.

Subsequently I work full time, my childcare costs £75 a day.... I earn over the threshold for any sort of financial help, with the exception of tax free childcare. Which only goes up to £10,000. My childcare bill is around £1300 a month. Which means that I basically pay to go to work. Part time wouldn't solve the problem either.

He's living the life of Reilly, not paying anything other than pennies for his kid. The system is fucking ridiculous and incompetent, and something needs to be done.

It’s hard to work out any percentages without actual figures, and I can’t imagine you have a close enough relationship with his ex to have any idea what she is actually claiming and it’s mostly speculation.

I will do some generic ones. They have 2 kids:

So RP has an income of £1500pm. Made up of whatever. Child benefit, tax credits, salary. RP also gets £400pm CM. This is 20% ‘extra’ on top of the RP basic income

Let’s bear in mind, RP has DC 12 nights out of 14. This means their income is more likely to be static and unlikely to rise as they have no childcare, or it’s expensive, benefits don’t ever go up.

RP has children 85% of the time.
RP therefore has £1900 to use to live for 3 people a month
Take off £1000 for basic essential bills
Every week, without food or anything else extra RP has approx £220pw for all 3. That’s £73 per person

They don’t have DC 15% of the time. NRP does. NRP pays £400pm to RP. They earn £35,000 a year and take home £2200. They pay £400 to NRP which is under 20% of their salary. They then get to keep the other 80+% of their salary around £1800, for one person. They have a partner who takes home £1200 a month, making their joint take home pay/income £3000, double that of RP. They also do not have children during the week, so they have freedom to expand their career, work more hours etc. Their essential bills/housing come to £1500, leaving £1500 completely free. That’s £750 per person a month, spare money.

They have the children 15% of the time. They feed them 12 meals a month. They wash 2 loads of clothes a month.

Let’s say this costs £150 a month to host the DC. This is 10% of their spare money after bills and the maintenance has come off. So they have £1350 left between them

RP has £200 per week left over for 3 people
NRP has £330 for 2 adults

No , nothing counter acts a nrp not supporting their own child.
If you think it's fair for a man to pay for children that aren't his, then you must think it's fine for a woman to pay for another woman's children. So basically you have lost your own argument.

I get 140 a month. 1 child just started high school. Pretty sure hes had payrises and things in the last 5 years since it was calculated but oh well. My son is available to him at any time. He seen him once this year for 3 hours on his birthday.
It works out as 35 a week. Thats for half of: food, electric, heating, the extra for a 2 bedroom house, clothes, any extras like pocket money, swimming, time out with his friends. I recently did a calculation based on the cabs income and outgoing and even being conservative in my estimates my son costs me about 100 a week. If i add school meals on to this itd be easily 125 a week. I get 80 from beneffits and then the 35 from his dad. Oooh im 15 pound up a week. Oh wait we havnt added travel costs so no im down 5 a week. Some days i dont eat. I cant afford to. Free school meals also means i get some trips with school or at least at a reduced rate that i may possibly be able to beg or borrow the cash to send him on. Kitting him out for highschool cost 400. I got an extra 80 5 days late. Im very lucky my mum can help. If the cm was taken intonit id be down 40 a week. So id be down more then i receive. Sure that makes sense my sons more disadvantaged then he already is.

My point is this.
Nrp had their financial contribution reduced because new partner has kids. So the children who are nothing to do with the nrp are counted and taken into account.
Why then is the income of the new partner not included in the maintenance payments. Oh that's because she/he doesn't count. So why the hell do her kids count then??????
You can't have it both ways and the nrp does.