To think the hospital just let him die?

[sadaboutlife]

My uncle was 73.
He was taken into hospital last Thursday with severe stomach pains and vomiting.
They gave him a scan and found out he had a perforated stomach ulcer.
Now they said normal treatment would be a operation but they said they didn't think he would survive the operation so refused to do it.
They gave him antibiotics and fluids and 3 days later told us he was dying.
He died yesterday.
I'm angry.
Why wouldn't they just try the Op?
They knew he would die anyway so why not at least give him a chance to live.
I'm so upset.
This time last week he was watching tele happy and now his gone
I just don't understand

He said with ever operation we weigh the pros and cons and in this case there was a 95% chance he wouldn't survive the op and if he did he would have no quality of life.

You've answered your own question. I'm sorry, OP, it's terribly difficult but it sounds as though, clinically, the correct decision was made. May he Rest In Peace.

I'm really sorry for your loss. I work in emergency medicine and if there was any chance they could have tried to save him I am sure they would have. Did he have a DNR or similar order? Because that afffects things too. It doesn't all boil down to money. At his age, if he wasn't well the chances of him surviving an operation like that are slim to none. He would probably have died from sepsis. Not the same but it's like when elderly (80 plus) break their hips. Almost 50% of those people die within a year of that break/operation because their body can't handle it. Again I'm really sorry you have had to go through that xx

It is absolutely unethical to offer futile treatment to people. Totally unacceptable.

People who are very unlikely to survive surgery should not be forced to die on the operating table because that’s what their relatives want.

It is a very hard decision to not offer surgery in these circumstances - it would have been much easier to operate. The easy decision is not always the right one.

If there was just one thing I would ask of relatives it’s that they don’t try and insist that I do things that make someone’s life worse with very little possibility of benefit. Sadly it is very common. I have lost count of the number of relatives who demand that their 95 yr old frail relative should spend their last moments having their ribs broken in a futile attempt to resuscitate them. They do not get to insist that we torture their relative.

My friend is a doctor and she says a sad but important part of being good at her job is giving people a 'good' death. I remember her saying a while back that the idea of keeping people alive at all costs leads to elderly people spending their last few days in agony often with broken ribs from recusitation (sp?) attempts or recovering from a surgery that their body couldn't cope with.

I don't know if that's what has happened here though you may need to speak to PALS.

Send them some photos, let them workitout between them.

Regards

@sadaboutlife I'm sorry for your loss. I haven't got time to read the full thread (need to get out of bed for work!) but wanted to share a similar experience. My uncle died in his 50s a few years ago. He had a burst stomach ulcer which as you say the standard procedure is an operation. He had this but because of copd didn't regain breathing on his own after the anesthetic.

This was obviously devastating for everyone. I think they tired because of his age and hoped he'd pull through but this was a chance of being the outcome. I'm sharing this because I think they do try to operate if possible even if it's risky.

However I understand you're upset and angry. You can get support from perhaps pals or health watch to find out properly what happend and what decisions were made.

I know you are grieving, and that will always cloud your judgement, but no good surgeon is going to perform an op that may result in the almost certain death of a patient.

My Grandma was refused an op for a perforated bowel last week. We lost her later that week. But she went peacefully, with dignity and after we all had a chance to say goodbye. Just sleeping. I preferred it that way, we all did, no one wanted her to die in a cold theater surrounded by strangers.

I think that might have been a PM @OnlyJoking1

Sorry for your loss.

A perforated ulcer is an ulcer that has gone through the stomach wall so the acid and other contents get into other parts of the body and yes it poisons.

I know why you are angry but just spare a thought for the medical staff. Could you go into work and do something that would result in the death of another person?

Also that action will prevent the family from having a few days with their loved one and mean the person dies in an operating theatre not in a bed with their family present?

In time you will look back as this being the best thing for your uncle, but it will take time.

Countryescape That’s interesting about the body not handling bad breaks and surgery in later life. I didn’t realise so many died following hip breaks. two of my elderly relatives died in the months following a fall and a break. One broke her hip and ended up deteriorating rapidly and developing dementia before she died. The other broke his hip and seemingly recovered well but died a few months later.

I am sorry for your loss too. Heartbreaking.

Sepsis can set in. DiC happens which is irreversible. This is what kills.
Was the ulcer secondary to cancer, which would complicate the picture.

OP

This death may have brought up feelings from your DM death. My DM died when I was 16 and even at 50 bits of repressed feelings still bubble up in once in a while.

Bereavement counselling is available and it’s never too long after the event to talk to someone.

www.cruse.org.uk/get-help

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude I think you might be right.
I was 14 when I lost my mum and I'm 34 and I still think about her daily.

I think as a teenager you don’t really have the emotional maturity to process something so big (I certainly didn’t). So it gets boxed up and pushed down. However, it does leak out into everyday life. In my case, I decided to get some counselling when I realised it was impacting on my daily life.

I’m so sorry for your loss. However if they did weigh up the pros and cons and came to the conclusion that even if he were to survive he’d have no quality of life. Treading very very carefully when I say this but They’ve probably made the correct decision. What would you rather him live till he’s 90 with no life and basically just existing. That would have been the only alternative. Although as a grieving relative you just want him back and totally get that.
Xx

This is so sad to read OP , and may well be made harder by your mother's death.

It's impossible to tell you why your uncle was not operated on without knowing all his medical details, results, home life etc etc. There are many reasons why operations are not carried out, but nothing related to funding.

It's also possible that your uncle expressed his own wishes in how he was treated. Big medical decision making like this is taken incredibly seriously. I've been involved in many of these discussions, there is so much that relatives are very often not made aware of and therefore can not see the rationale behind treatment.

If you are not your uncle's direct next of kin you may not have all the information, as well as the misunderstandings occurring through grief. Although no one here can tell you exactly why your uncle did not have an operation, I hope that most of the comments here provide reassurance that this decision would have been made with your Uncle's best interests coming first.

Sadly it is very common. I have lost count of the number of relatives who demand that their 95 yr old frail relative should spend their last moments having their ribs broken in a futile attempt to resuscitate them. They do not get to insist that we torture their relative.

We see similar in parents who cannot accept that their terminally ill child, who is in constant pain, so heavily drugged that they have little or no awareness of anything around them, will never leave an intensive care room and have no quality of life whatsoever, should be allowed to peacefully slip away.

Don't get me wrong - it's their child; if that were my child I'm sure I'd grasp at every straw, too - but that is why people who are emotionally in bits can't make these decisions.

To keep someone alive just because we can is not right, and it's not kind. A gentle death is actually a wonderful gift, even though many are too upset to recognise the fact.

It's not so long ago that illnesses like OP's uncle's meant an agonising last few days/hours - in many parts of the world they still do. Here we are fortunate; the situation can be carefully assessed (and they are - it's not random guesswork, and the option which is best for the patient is chosen.

My father had a perforated ulcer a couple of years ago at age 70. He was operated on as soon as a CT scan had been performed and it had been diagnosed.

Was your uncle in bad health otherwise?

So sorry for your loss. I lost my grandmother recently, she was also too weak/old for treatment/surgery. We totally understood this. Our other option would have been to pay for private care, we understood that the NHS do and did everything they could within their scope to take good care of her during her last few weeks. We will always remain grateful for what the NHS does for us. Hope things get better for your OP and I’m glad your uncle is at peace now x

Please read the thread, good. Yes, her uncle had other health problems. She doesn't elaborate but states he had clots in his legs and feet. Many, many people have conditions which make GA needed for certain operations dangerous (my father, for example, had to have a prostate removal under epidural with sedation as he had heart disease and GA to be avoided when possible) or are frail and have co-morbidities which make operating a bad idea.

I'm unsure what the correct health diagnosis was but he had blocked arteries in his legs and this had been like this years.
He had ulcers on his feet too and had to wear special shoes.
He was in hospital a month ago as he collapsed with chest pains(angina )

He may have had more than one condition, unfortunately. I'm sorry for your loss, sad.

He was in hospital a month ago as he collapsed with chest pains(angina )

OP. The more you say about your uncle clarifies even further why the medical staff made the correct decision. It sounds as though he had many health issues that made his survival very unlikely. Doesn’t stop you being sad though. But try to let go of the anger. 💐

"I think dying on an operating table opposed to comfortable in a hospital bed . I know which I would prefer"
Well, the OP's uncle wouldn't be aware of dying if unconscious on an operating table so can't see that he would be uncomfortable.

Just because they thought he wouldn't survive surgery doesn't mean that he wouldn't. I have a family member who was told he couldn't have a particular operation as he probably wouldn't survive it but when I asked what would happen if he fell and broke a hip, I was told they would perform an operation in an emergency. What's the difference?

I'm with you OP and am very sorry for your loss. No wonder our senior citizens are frightened of going into hospital. Did your uncle want the surgery?

I would definitely, in the first instance, fill in the form to obtain a copy of your uncle's notes and then make a complaint, referencing anything in the notes that differs to your family's understanding and recollections.

Who needs a law on euthenasia when this sort of thing takes place anyway?

I was in a hospital recently and there was a very elderly patient. He, like your uncle, needed an operation, but part of the cause of the 'illness' that required the operation also caused a severe infection.

The doctor had said that the sepsis infection was so bad that they did not think he would survive the operation, so all they could do at that point was keep him comfortable and treat the infection with antibiotics in the hope that they could clear up the infection to the point that they could then operate. Sadly, the gentleman died a day or two later from it, but that was the reason they went with the antibiotics first.

It may have been a similar thought process with your uncle.

Sorry for your loss.