To be angry that every single Lib Dem sat back and allowed the privatisation of the NHS

[Mistlewoeandwhine]

Yellow Tories the lot of them. Sickening. They showed their true colours tonight.

The vote, even had it carried, would have had absolutely zero legal effect.

They said the same thing about the Brexit Referendum to be fair. “It’s an advisory vote, not legally binding” etc etc... now look!

YABU. I think the Fib Dems will do anything for a vote but, we all know Labour started this.

They said the same thing about the Brexit Referendum to be fair. “It’s an advisory vote, not legally binding” etc etc... now look!

Nope, not the same thing at all. Those two things aren’t even approaching analogous and I don’t see how you think they are? They’re two completely different ball games.

Firstly, the law they passed to hold a referendum was legally-binding. And the government held a referendum, so they complied with it.

Secondly, all referendums in the UK can only be advisory. The highest principle of the UK constitution is that no parliament can bind its successor. So constitutionally, no referendum can be legally binding. But the two major parties both voted for the referendum bill, and made clear they would comply with the result, as both have tried to do. No major party ever said that the referendum was just advisory (legally it was, but they made clear that practically it was not).

Amendments to the queen’s speech, on the other hand, are purely symbolic. They’re virtue-signalling, nothing more.

Almost all politicians are in it for themselves. They don't really have any morals, they just say what they think people will hear in the hope of being (re)elected and staying on the gravy train.

Even if it’s only a “symbolic” vote - is the privatisation of the NHS a symbol you’d want your party to sell themselves on? I voted Lib Dem when they joined up with the Tories and I’ve felt terrible guilt ever since. Old Labour was vile and created a lot of these problems but Corbyn’s Labour is much more moral and decent. I’m not a Labour bot btw I’m saying these things because it frightens me how much people are going along with all these terrible ideas. And trying to justify them.

Even if it’s only a “symbolic” vote - is the privatisation of the NHS a symbol you’d want your party to sell themselves on?

Think about it this way - the Lib Dems aren’t going to vote in favour of the Tories’ Queen’s speech tomorrow, so what would be the point in voting for an amendment to it when they’re then going to vote the whole thing down?

Labour, likewise, even if the amendment had passed, would still have voted against the Queen’s speech and thus the NHS amendment tomorrow!

In politics, you need to look at what people do, the concrete actions they take.

Symbolic gestures that come at no cost to the party are meaningless. They’re just talk. Then again, that’s all the current Labour Party is.

Under Blair, they actually got things done - his international policy was a disaster, but his domestic policies were transformative.

To be honest, part of what Labour are doing is trying to smear the Lib Dems in advance of an election.

Let's vote for something that has no effect, that the Lib Dems are voting against soon anyway.

Oh look, nasty Lib Dems didn't vote in the same way we wouldn't for them! Let's make political capital out of it!

By the way, my former Lib Dem MP (I moved) posted that he was against privatisation of the NHS, but that what NHS staff don't want is a massive restructuring, which is part and parcel of Labour's own approach. Because a massive restructuring is another money-sink waiting to happen, and what they want is FUNDING. And the Libs Dems policy is... tax and fund it.

But pleeeeease tell me more about how they're evil, and how lovely Jeremy is going to wisely spend shitloads on structural reorganisation.

@thecatsthecats . The reality is Jeremy and a good number of his top team simply don't have the brain power or wherewithal to reorganise it. They will fling money at it but it will get swallowed up in following ideology and banning private providers than improving services and patient care.

I just totally despair at the standard of so many of our politicians

The NHS is and will not be privatised. This is a old troupe trotted out by the far left to frighten people who don't know any better.

Are some services privatised. Yes. In my recent experience and locally, the privatisation of some services has been a success. Pathology has been centralised in one local hospital, who now serve several other hospitals, and GP's, it is counted as a private service, but is run by the NHS, results take two days. VirginCare run the local mammogram service, much better to go to an outside clinic rather than clogging up the hospital. My recent MRI scan was done by a private company, who have a clinic on-site at the local hospital. The hospital contracts with them for MRI's. They provide the (hugely expensive) scanner and the manpower, they run 6 days a week from 8am-6pm, appointments readily available. My ultrasound was performed by another local GP practice, who have set up a dedicated service for other GP's. You can get an appointment within the week.

Not all privatisation is bad, and if I am not paying, it is still free at the point of delivery.

Also, just a point of order. There are currently many, many cross-party groups within the commons, getting together regularly, to try to sort out the many issues and problems with the NHS and Social Services going forward. These groups are CROSS PARTY, and all have the aim of trying to improve the services they provide. More of this kind of cross party co-operation is whats needed if we are to really create a better future for us all.

The reality is Jeremy and a good number of his top team simply don't have the brain power or wherewithal to reorganise it.

In fairness to them, they are far, FAR from unique in that sense.

I'm a historian by training, and the number of well meaning people who have tried to sweep out the stables, rebuild the stables, and decide to stable zebras not horses after all is by far the majority case.

It's especially striking when you look at say, post-Nazi Germany (lazy, I know, but the sources are the most extensive). It's all very good saying we'll prosecute and identify everyone who was a member of the Nazi party, but then you still need people to run the trains, the hospitals etc.

One thing that's incredibly striking is to look at the massive list of administrative functionaries. Some of whom committed suicide, fearing reprisal and punishment for what were relatively minor functions of the holocaust regime (no decision making or personal acts of murder). And others? Slap on the wrist, or demotion, etc etc.

Because they needed to keep the country running, and put the pieces back together.

Because it is insanely complicated to unravel even the most apparently straightforward of systems that society operates under. You can mostly just hope to gradually bring in the right faces.

@thecatsthecats ..a fairly balanced and sanguine view of things

Huge chunks of the NHS have been contracted out to providers like Virgincare. Children's services, school nurses, health visiting, GP services, care provision, social care....

Lots of it happened under Blair/Brown's Govts too. In fact it's been happening since the NHS was first formed.

The Labour amendment said:

"At end add ‘but respectfully regrets that the Gracious Speech does not repeal the Health and Social Care Act 2012 to restore a publicly provided and administered National Health Service and protect it from future trade agreements that would allow private companies competing for services who put profit before public health and that could restrict policy decisions taken in the public interest.’"

So the amendment was calling for a repeal of the 2012 act. There are some good things in that act on social care and on mental health. The Lib Dems didn't vote to repeal the whole act - just as Labour expected and wanted. Now Labour will claim that that the Lib Dems hate the NHS. This is a tactic that all the parties use. It's bollocks when any of them do it.

The argument about Corbyn as a leader is a separate matter, but to say that the Lib Dems have ' sat back and allowed the privatisation of the NHS ' is plainly wrong.

As the Lib Dems and Labour are rivals for votes from many progressive Remainers it's not surprising that Labour are spreading lies about the Lib. Dems. The latest claim that Lib. Dems. do not oppose privatisation of the NHS is propaganda. As Goebbels said: repeat a lie often enough ... Please pause and check facts before posting indignant messages. See www.libdemvoice.org/of-course-the-lib-dems-oppose-exposing-our-nhs-in-future-trade-deals-62431.html Oh, and just in case this message is seen by some who unintentionally spread the lie as being from a Lib. Dem. supporter - I'll be voting Labour in the general election because 1. the Labour candidate has the best chance of beating the Tory candidate and 2. She is smart enough to be anti-Brexit.