AIBU to view this as coercive control

[emerald47]

I've been with DP for 13 years. The last 3 have been difficult with some mental health problems with DP (though he would say these have passed and he is ok now). I have been frustrated and unhappy for a while. I went to see a therapist who on realising my real concerns about leaving him, re the effect on DC and my ability to work without shared childcare support, suggested couples therapy rather than continuing with therapy on my own. We are a few months in, but last session DP discussed how he felt excluded from his family and basically expressed jealousy that our primary age DC have more emotional warmth with me than him. He cited the fact that when we are sitting in the sofa the kids are often tucked up in the middle and cuddling me, not him. Also that DS3 often gives me a back massage and we chat or read at the same time. Am I being unreasonable to think this kind of jealousy re one's own children is just not normal. If it was the other way round I think I would feel warmth that my children loved their dad. I felt sad that a bit of close time with a young child at the end of the day where I am reading and he likes to feel some physical contact and being 'kind to his mum' (but nothing in my view that's weird or odd) is being turned into something that is dysfunctional. I heard this, when it was said by DP, as a form of coercive control and self obsession ...but felt, this week, hyper alert or uncomfortable with these aspects of my relationships with my kids which made me feel sad that my behaviours with my dc are being controlled by my alertness to how DP is reading them. I started questioning myself as to whether I 'should' be doing certain things. It seems to me as well, that with couples therapy, that the counsellor has to be 'even handed' so she is not always challenging things that are said by him and has to them pass them on to me by saying things like 'well why don't you sit next to do on the sofa' or 'hmm well maybe having a back rub from DS3 could be replacing DPs role'. Am I reading all this wrong?

Sounds like he feels distant from his children...not quite sure how that’s controlling

For me, it was him citing things that I think are normal that I thought he was wanting me 'not to do' because of him feeling distant.

I’m not sure I would see it as a form of coercive control and by saying that it feels as though you’re finding a reason to dismiss the legitimacy of his feelings. He’s been honest enough to admit that he feels excluded so rather than dismiss this as controlling (which it isn’t), perhaps you could look at how you could make him feel less on the outside. I have to be honest, if my husband was always cuddling the children and nobody was cuddling me I’d feel a bit rubbish about it. Maybe you both need to make a more conscious effort to make each other feel loved. I do find the back massage from a child a little strange and it does seem slightly as though you have replaced physical affection from your partner with physical affection from your children. If you’ve had a difficult few years this is understandable but now you need to listen to what he is saying, just as he needs to listen to you, and start to make time for each other.

Control is a lot more sinister and he isn’t threatening you with anything? Don’t see control he just wants his kids to be more affectionate which is fair point. You don’t need a reason to leave him he doesn’t need to be a bastard if you are not happy leave

From my perspective, and I'm just spitballing here (gross saying actually, no idea where it comes from), but the accuracy of how you're feeling doesn't matter, what matters is you're feeling it. Your feelings can't be wrong.

Like you, when there is a closeness between my STBXH and the kids then I feel very warm about it. That said, interestingly and maybe relevantly, recently as things have become worse between us I have less warmth when I see this. In some dark bits of my mind it feels manipulative and competitive, so bearing this in mind, I do wonder if your partner's negative feelings about your warm relationship with your kids is a reflection of the health levels of his love for you. It maybe something deeper.
I don't think it's necessarily coercive control from his perspective, but in the end it has the same effect and this is what counts.

I'm sorry you are going through this.
I wish I had proper advice but had to at least say your feelings are justified.
My response to this would be incredible unhappiness and eventually having one foot out the door (if not both). I've realised that life is too short to give years of it to someone who makes you so unhappy.

I don’t understand who is meant to be being controlling in this situation? I can’t see any signs of control. It sounds like you’ve encouraged your husband to go to counseling and so he’s opening up and being honest during counseling which is exactly what he’s supposed to do. It’s a shame that you see him expressing his feelings as doing something wrong - or that his feelings themselves are wrong. I hope you haven’t expressed this to him or it could hinder the counseling or just make him want to stop going altogether. I can also really understand where he is coming from. I am so cuddly and close to my DC and we cosleep etc. for this reason I make a huge effort to be extra affectionate to my husband as I feel like he might feel a bit left out sometimes? Like if me and DC are cuddled up on the sofa reading a book I’ll lay on my husband and DC will lay on me and we will all read together, or I’ll encourage DC to read with his dad and I’ll give them some space together or sit on DHs other side and give him a cuddle too. Little things like this, while really small, really make us feel closer as a family and it’s lovely to spend time all together/cuddle up together and not just mum and DC with dad doing their own thing or not feeling included. My DC is definitely a mummy’s boy which is why i started to make the effort to do this, although DH never said anything about it (maybe it never bothered him in the first place, but since I’ve started making more effort to all be closer/cuddlier it’s been really nice and definitely feel closer as a family.

Id find getting a child to do a back rub over a DP decidedly odd

Ok. Thanks. It's hard when you are in the mire of lots of problems to view things objectively. Maybe CC is too strong I can accept that - I've experienced that before so I am alert to it, but I felt like he was trying to alter my behaviour with the DC who need a bit of stability atm.

Cuddling up to your children on the sofa, chatting and reading to them is a completely normal part of parenting. The back massage from your DS is perhaps more unusual, and I can see why your DH might feel that he is being replaced by your DS in a sense there.

It doesn't seem remotely coercive or controlling, however, for him to express his feelings of distance from the family and his fears that he is no longer emotionally connected to you. It sounds as if the counsellor is trying to encourage you both to address the issues in your relationship. You talk about her having to be "even-handed" as if she were somehow ignoring the truth in order to be "fair" but has it occurred to you that she may genuinely believe that it is not as simple as DH = villain and you = victim?

It seems to me that you are unhappy in your relationship and are perhaps hoping that if your DH is being coercive, it will place all the blame for the unhappiness on his shoulders so that you don't have to examine your own behaviour too closely.

And thanks AloneLonelyLoner. It is a very difficult time at the moment and had been for a while, so gentle responses much appreciated.

ChaoticKate - great post. Very balanced and I hope - helpful.

Although OP - you do not need any 'reason' to leave. It does look a little like you are trying to find abuse, (cc) in order to justify your wish to leave the relationship as a means of assuaging your guilt for breaking up the family and destabilising the dc.. You will have a much better co-parenting relationship if you just 'own' the decision- and not try to put 'blame' on anyone.
No one HAS to be in a relationship they don't want to be in. Simple as that. No reason needed.

i am guessing that the kids dont do this with him because he hasn't been around doing the emotional bit with them. My dp sometimes moans that our dd wants me more than him but it is only because I am the one drawing with her when I get home from work etc, getting her bathed and in general doing all the parenting! Maybe suggest to him that if he wants more closeness with the kids he has to do more for and with them???

Yes I think the Dc are wary of him because he has been volatile emotionally hence it being uneven. I did say this at the session. I have perhaps felt the need to compensate with consistent and available presence as a result.

Don't get your son to give you a back rub!! That is weird!!

When I was in the throes of breaking up with my ex he would level the same complaints at me - that he felt excluded, the children would naturally turn to me, I was "obsessed" with them and had no time for him, we were leaving him out etc etc

What he failed to acknowledge was that he was aggressive, unkind and loud and that the children naturally turned to me for their comfort. He never admitted any responsibility for the situation. He thought it was all my fault and would tell that to anyone who listened.

It's quite a clever ploy and got others thinking I was shutting him out and encouraging the kids to do the same.

Maybe you just need to unpick the family dynamics a bit more at your counselling and get to the bottom of why things are like they are.

Fwiw I'm long term divorced now, live with my two affectionate and funny kids in our calm, chilled house and the sniping and aggression are a dim and distant memory. Hope you sort out your difficulties

I think he’s telling you he feels left out and unloved. If you don’t feel sympathetic to this or want to help him, then maybe it is time to let the relationship go?

I do find the massage a little unusual, but maybe that’s just me? I can’t really explain why, I just don’t think children should be doing the role of looking after a parent. It sounds like DH would like to be providing you with a back rub.

Theres posta here all the time from women feeling down because the kids seem to prefer their dad. Not once have I ever thought it was controlling.

I don't think its is here either. I am going to try and say this as gently as I can. I have been a victim of cohersive control. This isnt it and trying to turn him expressing how he feels, into this is just wrong. Would you do this with any other sort of abuse?

In counselling when you have shared how you feel about things, do you see that as you controlling him? Turning someone being honest about how they feel, into an accusation of abuse, isnt ok. It also suggests a good outcome from counselling, isnt something you are looking for? Also it doesnt sound like he is jealous of the children. He is jealous of the closeness you have with them. That's different to being jealous of the children.

That said, it appears that his behaviour is part of this. And you should feel free to say that in counselling but also make a plan together to resolve that. You dint have to accept blame or responsibility for how the situation is. The kids will only benefit from a close relationship with both parents.

Lots of what you said seems normal. But it does sound like you are replacing closeness with your partner with that of your children and pushing him away. This maybe because the damage done to the relationship in the last few years is just too much. You may have emotionally checked out if the relationship.

The situation is how it is and either you can work with him to get a close relationship with his kids (him doing most if the work but you supporting) or you cab carry on as is.

But turning it into him trying to abuse you, is wrong and not helping you, him or the kids.

I don’t think you should stop giving your kids affection because your husband feels uncomfortable. Instead encourage him to read the story with the kids every other night or have his own special part of a bedtime routine

Thank you all. This is helpful - so much of it. And I recognise as I say I maybe a. not feeling as open and supportive as one should in a healthy relationship having had a difficult time in the last few years with DPs mental health and b. Having, in the past, experienced some extreme control by an ex for an extended period (even after I left him) hence my question - ie I may be hyper alert to the possibility of being controlled and manipulated, which may be unhelpful, if understandable! Thanks for all your thoughtful replies.

I read an interesting article years ago (don't think I will find it now) where number of men admitted they often felt sad because they will never have the same close relationship with their children as the mother does since mum is bringing kids up and man spend all days at work. Obviously times are changing now and man have some options of parental leave, which I really think they should be more encouraged to take to help build the bond.

Imho it's not about him not wanting you to have close relationship with dc, it's about him wanting it to.

Nothing you've outlined in your OP is coercive or controling. He's expressing that he feels isolated within the family and at times envious of the closeness and affection he sees between you and the DC because he feels that's lacking in his own relationships with you. That can't have been an easy thing to admit actually. I agree with a PP that it sounds like you're seeing red flags where there aren't any because you want a reason to leave. Not being happy is reason enough.

It doesn’t sound like he is saying that what you’re doing with the kids is weird or dysfunctional, though. What he’s saying is that he feels left out of his own family. That’s quite sad he feels that way and he’s being vulnerable to admit it.
Feeling like an outsider in your own family is something that can happen as a result of his being emotionally neglected as a child himself - is that relevant in this case?
I too don’t see anything to do with control here. Just somebody trying to be open about how he’s feeling.

Don't get your son to give you a back rub!! That is weird!!

Of course, it isn't. My DD (9) likes to give kiddie back rubs and shoulder massages because I give them to her. She loves them! She even wants me to pay for a massage for her but I haven't researched this yet.

OP, it does sound like he is feeling excluded from the affection and love. But we get what we give, often times. Is he working on this himself? And, no, I don't feel this is coercive control.

Do you actually know what coercive control is? doesn't sound like coercive control at all to me.

You maybe feel sad that your naturally loving and close relationship with your children is now under scrutiny. And because of his comments you feel you need to adjust this normal behaviour.

Please don't. Your kids need that loving closeness from you, you are a loving mum and that is so important.

Don't change how you parent to make him feel better. He needs to change how he parents, this is his stuff not yours xx