Protestors climb on train

[omikron]

What on earth to ER hope to achieve this morning?! Such arseholes

As far as I can tell, XR's disruption has actually caused very little action so far from those who have the wealth and influence to do the most to bring the earth back from the brink of catastrophe, but done a lot to disrupt the lives of ordinary people who simply cannot afford the disruption caused by road blockages and public transport hold-ups, and won't be convinced to change their lifestyles by people who are just causing a nuisance to them. I know we all have the power to change things but XR's actions don't seem to be working where they're needed most. I would be delighted to be told otherwise though.

Any celebs flying in to join this time?

We have two representatives here.
They have both ignored the question I asked which was why they think stopping commuters getting to work and people attending hospital appointments is likely to reduce emissions or persuade people to take the climate seriously. They don’t acknowledge that the overwhelming number of posts view their actions negatively which means they have had a negative impact on their cause and they conveniently refuse to take responsibility for their fringe attacking tube trains. Next time their fringe will probably do even more stupid and dangerous things - what are they going to do to control them?

They seem like nice people who haven’t understood the damaging effect that the protests have had on their cause. They will be remembered for blocking the tubes and hospitals, flying in celebrities and arrogantly comparing themselves to Rosa Parks.

We agree there haven't been the results we need so far, which is why XR isn't going away. But since XR actions began Britain has declared a climate emergency and committed to a 2050 target for emissions. Last month, the Labour party conference adopted 2030 as the date to aim for. Polls show that 78% of Britons now believe the planet is 'heading for disaster' up from 59% in 2013. The Guardian said last week, 'The frame of the debate has palpably shifted, as it must, and XR deserve much of the credit.'

I did answer your question Mrspenfold123, several posts ago. It has got people talking about the issue, it is in the news, there are several threads about it on here. Like I said, for better or for worse, I'm not sure. Serious discussions need to take place within XR about the issue of fringe groups and actions being carried out in the name of XR.

Many thousands of us marched peacefully on Oxford Street last Saturday. The media was not interested. No one cared. A half dozen people stop a tube and it's all over the news, XR is invited to talk on the BBC, and people are talking about it, which gives the climate change issue prominence it would not otherwise have had.

While it is clear what most of the people on this thread think of XR, a lot of people also support them.

You haven't answered the question I asked - what alternative do you think there is to XR (ASIDE from making personal lifestyle changes, which I have done). What environmental groups/campaigning are you involved in/know about that you feel do a good job that you think my time would be better spent with?

I am terrified for the future. I am terrified what it holds for my child, and for the suffering that many millions of people may face of things do not change.

Comments from posters on here saying that will only make changes that are convenient to them make me feel hopeless. The changes needed are not going to be convenient. They are going to be hard. That's why we need government to legislate for this.

For what it's worth, I have no social media, so my involvement has nothing to do with instagram and virtue signalling.

These problems will be solved by technology in the long run.

Electric cars, solar power, energy storage.

You know the biggest environmental problem that faced the west in 1900? The amount of horse shit on the streets.
The proposals that were made to address that pale into insignificance against the technology that eradicated the problem.

It will be the same in this case.

As regarding the progress that had been made on these issues in the last year, I don’t deny it. But these last two weeks have set it back. The discussion through September was about what can be done. These two weeks have changed the conversation to how stupid the protesters were to shut down tube lines, and how arrogant, hypocritical and annoying they are.

You need to change tactics and targets if you want to go back to having success. The brand of XR is now irrevocably damaged and can achieve no more.

Mrspenfold123 you're still not answering my question.

'The brand of XR is now irrevocably damaged and can achieve no more.' Ok. What's the alternative, given there is no indication currently that these problems will be solved by technology any time soon?

The brand of XR is now irrevocably damaged and can achieve no more.

I agree it has been irrevocably damaged. I have absolutely no interest about reading about XR after their recent shenanigans, I just cannot take them seriously. There is no way they can control these so called splinter groups acting under their name.

It's odd to see people here putting their faith in technology alone to solve these problems when the scientific consensus is very much that we need - at the same time as exploring new technologies - to bring net emissions to zero and halt biodiversity loss.
This article is really good on the limitations of technological fixes: "Prof John Shepherd said: 'Negative emissions technologies are very interesting but they are not an alternative to deep and rapid emissions reductions. These remain the safest and most reliable option that we have.'” www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/01/silver-bullet-to-suck-co2-from-air-and-halt-climate-change-ruled-out

@adamum
We really are not being over dramatic in talking about an impending catastrophe and the need to sound the alarm.
This is not irrational - look at the scientific consensus. Over 1000 scientists have now signed a letter of support for XR's strategy of civil disobedience.
They say:
"We declare that scientific evidence shows beyond any reasonable doubt that human-caused changes to the Earth’s land, sea and air are severely threatening the habitability of our planet. We further declare that overwhelming evidence shows that if global greenhouse gas emissions are not brought rapidly down to net zero and biodiversity loss is not halted, we risk catastrophic and irreversible damage to our planetary life-support systems, causing incalculable human suffering and many deaths....
We therefore support those who are rising up peacefully against governments around the world that are failing to act proportionately to the scale of the crisis."
docs.google.com/document/d/1FuZYG-gT5EPTLDyvgNnlYIS5dAy43TM1MnvOls48qIc/edit
All the people I know in XR are not the kind that just enjoy protesting for the sake of it. They are busy, responsible people who are doing it because they are deeply worried about their own and their children's future

LMAO, so i say that the doomsday cult like language puts me off and to try talk me round you use the same language i say makes me go "bugger off, take your drama away from me"
You can be sure i didnt waste my time clicking the link as i can predict a whole raft of crisis, doomed, catastrophe, blah blah blah.
The tactics they use. the language PUTS PEOPLE OFF. You wont change that by repeating same old shit and refusing to see why people get annoyed or worse, seeing it and saying "eh who cares" then wonder why your ignored and told to bugger off.
Responsible people dont shut glue themselves to roads, they dont climb on trains, they dont refuse to let emergency services through, they dont steal livestock and call it "liberation" they dont have a tanty in the street and wonder why people pissed off when they cant get to work, school or the dr

Also, anyone can join XR and bring an idea for an action, so if anyone is reading this and thinking, XR should really do this particular protest, then if you have the time and inclination, you can join your local group and see if others support it and go from there

See even if i had some great idea, no way would i put XR anywhere near it, they are a PR nightmare and if i had some great idea, id want it to be taken seriously, something that XR are not getting, being taken seriously. They are a joke and an annoyance

I think XR's biggest problem is a failure to recognise that the majority of people don't, or can't, give a shit about the impacts climate change will cause.

That is why we've been asking governments to take action for decades, and they haven't.

Because the majority of voters don't care, and won't change - they have short term concerns, and doing things that will affect their lives negatively (it will be inconvenient, and costly to take action on climate change, but the impacts in the long run will make austerity look like a walk in the park for future generations) won't win votes.

We're our own worst enemies. But I do believe this decade is the last chance we will have to turn things around, even slightly.

Comments from posters on here saying that will only make changes that are convenient to them make me feel hopeless. The changes needed are not going to be convenient. They are going to be hard. That's why we need government to legislate for this.

Heres a tip, dont look at how others live their lives to make you feel good. Do i care if you recycle, walk to work, have solar? Nope
Is my happiness based on how others live? No
If you dont like or want the stress, dont take it on, dont engage.

Very few will make changes that inconvenience them, be it in time, cost or living standards, im not ashamed to count myself in that.
I wont spend more for the same thing but one is eco freindly.
I wont spend money on a rental to make it eco friendly, i wont pressure the LL to either, they our inlaws and have enough on their plate
We wont downgrade car cos they dont suit our needs

It's so sad to read people here stating with so much pride that they won't read the science and that they/others don't care anyway.
Maybe you are all correct, and we will just go down into environmental collapse with our fingers in our ears.
But I hope that you are wrong.
This issue is much, much bigger than XR and its 'brand'.
XR could end tomorrow, but there are other groups and movements and ideas, some already in existence, that will then take its place. Because this is about life on earth and many people do care and will continue to act until it's too late.

Technology will solve this problem, if it gets solved in time at all. The rest is fluff.

Respectfully, regarding your question about what is the alternative, hmmpop, that’s for you to work out.

I told you what I was doing: cycling virtually everywhere, investing in Green Tech and no longer flying.

But, if you accept my premise that the actions of XR are annoying people, providing ammunition for climate change deniers to shift the debate on to nuisance protesters, and are consequently counter-productive, then simply stopping supporting XR is a good starting point.

I am specifically criticising XR, because their brand is now toxic, partly because of the stupidity of protesting the tube, what this thread was initially about, don’t forget.

That is how those two weeks will be remembered by most people.

Just because things need doing doesn’t mean it’s helpful to lash out in anger at normal people and prevent them going about their business.

'Technology will solve this problem'. The link I pasted above gives a good overview of why it can't solve the problem unless we simultaneously cut emissions and halt biodiversity loss. And we need government action here. Naomi Klein is very good on this - that while technology can say, deliver and sell an electric tram, we will still need government investment and planning and legislation to move people over to mass clean public transport/cycling.

Like hmmpop I won't give up on XR until I find a better alternative.

Over 1000 scientists have now signed a letter of support for XR's strategy of civil disobedience.

Unfortunately XR's interpretation of civil disobedience leaves a lot to be desired. The ridiculousness of people superglueing themselves to objects like planes and trains; whilst the glue in itself not harmful to the environment as such, the manufacturing of same is. People travelling from abroad to attend protests is utterly hypocritical. The amount of people that now see them as a joke is increasing.

'Respectfully, regarding your question about what is the alternative, hmmpop, that’s for you to work out.'

I think that's a bit of a cop out. You've been able to tell me in no uncertain terms what I'm doing wrong. It would be useful to have a discussion about what you think I could do right.

squeekums I am fully aware that you and many others like you dont care about environmental issues and won't make any changes that inconvenience you. If any at all. Which is why we need legislation.

Well, I don’t know what more I can say.

I’ve told you what I’m doing, and I’m certain that those actions are positive.

I’ve also told you that I think doing nothing is better than supporting XR, so if my opinion is that important to you, as a starting point, begin with so no harm.

So->do.

‘Like hmmpop I won't give up on XR until I find a better alternative.’

In which case, campaign internally for a fundamentally different approach and make sure your colleagues understand why it’s important not to alienate the public.

Honestly, for all your efforts to be remembered as “look at those idiots who stopped the tubes running”, is a shame, and because of your fringe that IS how you are now seen by most people.

If you don’t get that message through internally, you give ammunition to your real opponents to ignore you.

Also, you need to have concrete sensible proposals about what actions to take:
The three:
“Declare a climate emergency” is potentially useful in moving the debate;
“Commit to net zero by 2025” is totally unrealistic.
“Appoint a people’s committee to advise” is populist nonsense - it won’t come up with the right policy initiatives.

Most important, don’t forget that politicians will shift their language in response to public opinion and will look for solutions proposed by true experts.

Bring realistic solutions of concrete actions that need taking and will have public support, and think about how your campaigns affect public opinion. All publicity is not good publicity.

What XR is currently doing is no longer advancing along either dimension.

Lastly, lose the arrogance. Don’t make the mistake of assuming that the co-development of climate awareness at the same time as xr have been operational implies that the former is caused by the latter. Look at the anger xr have engendered and push a more inclusive approach.

Mindless Arseholes! They need to get jobs and work for living like the rest of us. There's is certainly not the way to win anything.

@Clearaschristal

I have a job. I work for a living. I am like the rest of you.

I get that people are angry about the disruption. I get that people think XR are mindless arseholes. I get that people are angry.

But I'm fucking angry too. I'm angry that nowhere near enough is being done by those in power.

I'm angry at the mindless aresholes who don't give a shit, that continue to buy tat and drive their cars needlessly and won't read the science, and won't make any changes that inconvenience them. That don't care that it is the poorest and most vunerable that are ALREADY suffering the effects of climate change. That it is the poorest and most vunerable that will be hardest hit in the future.

But I don't think coming on to a thread throwing about stereotypes about them, calling them a bunch of cunts and threatening violence is a useful way to address this (as much as it might be cathartic in the short term). So I'm trying to do something positive with XR.