Why is mens behaviour excused?

[gwackywacky]

So tonight in a group situation (a group that I started), this older man (20 years older than me) turns around and basically lays into me, making some really cutting comment. Telling me I was full of shit (I was discussing a technical detail with someone else), telling me to stop bigging myself up and talking a load of crap.

I was actually really shocked and there was this kind of appalled silence around the table. This isnt the first time this has happened, he has been extremely condescending to other people. His turn of phrase to me was really cutting and his tone was really nasty.

I'm afraid I absolutely lost my shit with him. I properly laid into him, it turned into quite a loud fight, and luckily one other well respected woman in the group piped up and said "to be honest, she's completely right. That was utterly uncalled for".

Right, case closed.

But what I find fascinating is that two women were actually making excuses for him.

One woman there and then at the table started gathering on in a wishy washy way to kind of excuse him.

Later, another woman told me she thought he was just joking.

And then later one guy texted me to say he did think it was out of order, but at the same time this man was going through a stressful divorce, blah blah blah.

I'm just really hurt, but also quite fascinated by this idea that people seem to make apologies and excuses for men. Why is that? Why do other women especially make excuses for men? You see it when it comes to cheating, too. What's the logic at play here?

I think the reasons are extremely complex but I agree with you fwiw. Well done for not putting up with it.

Women are brainwashed into putting men on a pedestal. My MIL is a classic example, her DB was abusive, Moody and self centred but his ex wife was the she devil for leaving as 'he never beat her'

You sound as bad as each other tbh

Tvstar comes along to help prove the point. Thoughtful of them!!

Good for you for sticking up for yourself. I'd guess loads of women wouldn't feel able to.

Like pp said - it's complex. But basically, patriarchy. Men can go around being rude or seriously inept and don't suffer any consequences. Women making the same mistakes are vilified. Just look at how Dianne Abbot was treated for a small error in saying a number. Yet male politicians can send the country to hell, beat women, be unfaithful, make racist and sexist comments, break the law, fiddle their expenses, dodge their taxes and come away from it unscathed. Maybe because it's deeply ingrained that women aren't up to it?

Because misogyny/the patriarchy.

It sucks, but it's true.

What Kolo said. Women are largely socialised to appease men still, and some women are very afraid of male displays of anger -- it's not hard to see why. Female anger is highly unlikely to involve a man in being hurt or killed, but the coverse isn't true. You'd think you should be safe in a group situation, but look how it escalated, and how many people defended the man, or at least didn't defend you.

I come at this as someone who had to learn specific workshop management skills as a young female academic to manage male students talking over female students or otherwise occupying all the discussion space in a classroom -- male mature students were a particular problem, and I hear this over and over again from female colleagues of all ages and levels of seniority.

And some men simply cannot cope with their authority being challenged by women. I was a friend's date for a major literary prize a few years ago -- one man on the shortlist and five women. He spent the entire dinner before the announcement 'jokily' saying he had to be awarded the prize because being an alpha male meant it was very psychologically difficult for him to lose. He lost.

To be honest i think people make excuses for women as well. You only have to look at some of the threads on here.

Well done for not accepting it and defending yourself.
But yes, I see a lot of defense for male behaviour, mainly saying they behave like that because they're male, and that's it.
I work in a customer facing job and deal with complaints and men tend to shout, intimidate and belittle to get their point across, women tend to reason and explain. Of course there are exceptions but I see my male colleagues treated with more respect in that type of scenario than myself or female colleagues. And it's a kind of "Well what do you expect?" Answer or "Sorry for that, but I was angry" like it's ok then, or the ones who insist on speaking to my manager, and get worse because she's also a woman.
I think it's just ingrained that men and their thoughts, feelings and wants should come first and when they don't, or when they come up against opposition, they lose it. And I think some women defend them because it's easier and the conflict solved faster than taking a stand.

The insidious poison that is the patriarchy. It's just as toxic to young men too which is why they're one of the largest at risk groups for unpredictable suicide.

Well done for sticking up for yourself. I have a bit of a reputation because I won't be talked down to, apparently that means I'm a bit of a ball breaker

It's something I'm trying to help my daughter navigate at the moment but it's so difficult because when she's calling out the boys for their shitty behaviour (in an appropriate way) it escalates and they actually wage a campaign of bullying against her for 'shaming' them. I'm trying so hard to raise her not to be cowed by aggressive males, but the other side of me is starting to lean towards her just keeping her head down so that she's not a target for their hatred.

This just perpetuates the problem though because these aggressive teenage boys will learn they can do what they want as long as they scare people into co-operation...especially women!

It depends, he is probably a sexist arsehole.
However you could be like one of the apprentices telling Lord Sugar how to run things. Yes he is very rude to them but you can understand why sometimes they are so full of themselves.
Think you are the only one who will know.

"This isnt the first time this has happened, he has been extremely condescending to other people. His turn of phrase to me was really cutting and his tone was really nasty."

First thing I'm wondering, is this work or status related in any way? Is this man useful to other members of the group? Some people will kowtow because of that.

Otherwise I think there's many reasons and a bullying woman will often defended in the same way. Fear of bullies?

Anyway, if you're in charge of the group, I'd chuck him out.

If I come across someone who tries to make excuses for someone else's bad behaviour I look at them in the eye and say 'Would you ever speak to someone like that?'

I've never had anyone reply in the affirmative. Mostly they start to shuffle and mumble a no, or give me a vehement 'no, never!'. Then I explain to them that if they never would, it's because they know it's unnaceptable. Then I ask them that considering they are aware that the behaviour is unnaceptable, why they have taken it upon themselves to make excuses for that person.

Turn it around and make the excuse maker the focus of the conversation. Nine times out of ten they won't like it and will stop.

Also finish up with something along the lines of 'If I ever saw someone treat you that way, I wouldn't be standing infront of you making excuses for them, I'd be on your side'.

@AzraiL Thats a great technique. I'm stealing it!

No problem, hope it works for you as well as it has worked for me!

Another thing you might like to try in regards to that a-hole when he inevitably has his next outburst - pause and let the ridiculousness of what he said sink in for everyone a moment, then calmly (without acknowledging him) say 'as I was saying - ' and continue on as though he had never spoken. That will drive him nuts, and if he explodes again, he will look unbalanced while you're looking all calm and unruffled. You might need to go to the ladies and calm down afterwards but it'll be worth it.

Why does it have to be a men v. women thing ?

A person behaved incorrectly, you responded, someone else stuck up for you. Other people around the table probably just wanted to restore some semblance of calm, in a wish to reduce the dramatic tension and probably trying to see the best in everyone, whilst also mentally noting that the instigator should probably be given a wide berth for a bit. I can only imagine that in my own social sphere the reaction would be the same regardless of the sex of the person involved.

But, hey, I'm sure a sweeping generalisation about the sexes, with very little context about the pre-existing relationships between the participants and the situation of the major protaganist, will do wonders for whatever it is you're hoping to achieve.

It's not a man/woman thing. I've heard any number of excuses for my female colleagues' behaviour. And posters do it here every day.

Respectfully disagree. If these so-called 'peacemakers' wanted to restore some semblance of calm, I don't see how they feel it is appropriate to approach and put the onus on the victim to be accomodating, and 'give the perpetrator a wide berth for a bit'. That would just create a culture of a power imbalance, with everyone tiptoeing around and enabling the instigator.

Why don't the peacemakers approach the instigator and put the onus on them to correct their behaviour instead?

My reading is they thought, while his behaviour was bad, your reaction was disproportionate. It seems to me they are not so much excusing him but trying gently to tell you to tone it down in future.

You were quite right to call him out, but could have done so without “properly laying into him” and “losing your shit”. And you might been more effective if you’d stayed calm.

while his behaviour was bad, your reaction was disproportionate
It doesn't sound disproportionate to me. He butted into someone's conversation to tell the OP very rudely to stop bigging herself up. He had a history of being condescending and rude in the op's group that he had joined. It sounds as if her reaction was just what he needed.

Azail, why would a culture of power imbalance form ? Again, I can only go by what I know in my own spheres, but it would just see the instigator :

• pushed out of the group (if a social group) ;
• reported to HR (if a work setting).

Also, how do you know the peacemakers haven't approached the instigator ?

My main point is, I don't see why the OP is pretending that this is some sort of pass given only to men, when it is something that happens to everyone. If a woman were to go bananas at a man (or woman) in a meeting of some sort, I would expect much the same response, with more self-assured people around the table telling her she was out of order, and then other people coming up with a "wishy-washy" chat to make them feel a bit better there and then so that whatever meeting it was could proceed. Followed by "well, she's under stress because of XYZ" later once people could think about it. Because it's reasonable to try and work out why someone exploded and to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I admire people who stay calm and polite in the face of bad behaviour, but in reality I've found that getting a bit angry, snarly and shouty works better with lots of bullies. They take calm and good manners for weakness and only back off and show respect when their intended victim shows a bit of aggression. So the OP probably did exactly the right thing -- not that she was asking for our approval. I just disagree with those who disapprove of her reaction to horrible behaviour directed at her.

Because men' opinions matter more. If any of you read Stylist magazine there's an interview in it this week with Mary Beard where she talks about how she was talked over when she was younger.

It made me realise how often it happened to me in meetings when I was younger, and how it actually impaired my effectiveness in my job and made me look rubbish. I got to the point where I didn't want to open my mouth in a meeting because I would be rubbished by someone (not necessarily a man, to be fair, it was very occasionally another a woman) but then got told off by my (female) boss for not contributing more...

you know the old adage "it's better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"? That was (and still is to an extent) me. And mainly because of mansplaining.

Interestingly how that I work for myself and often attend networking events, it doesn't seem to happen in the same way. Maybe because a lot of the women are older and not prepared to put up with it anymore?

Last week on Have I got news for you Ian Hislop was mansplaining really badly. Even DH noticed and commented!