To ask how the hell to cope with dd9

[SevenOhFour]

Dd9 has always been a lovely girl. So lovely. Would do anything for anyone. So kind and gentle. Have had an inkling she may be asd from younger (sensory and routine issues etc) but as she had no issues with relationships or school was told no reason to assess.

Fast forward to about age 6 or 7, violent outbursts started. Usually when something was unexpected (wrong socks or no time to go to shop we had planned etc) anyway we are hopefully on the waiting list to diagnose asd. Although I'm not confident we will get a diagnosis as she is perfect at school.
She is so big though now, she's on age 12 to 13 clothes, she can really cause damage. Her and her brother were shoving each others paper of the table this evening. I told them both to stop, he did, she didn't, I told her to stop again or she would have to go to bed. She continues and also threw his pens all over the floor. I told her to go to bed and she went mad saying I'm not allowing her to do her homework. I told her no she's not doing her homework now she just needs to go to bed.

She started hitting me and throwing her brothers work. Snatched me phone and hid it. My 3yo and 7yo sons are scared at this point. I try to give her space but she's following me round the house attacking me.

I told her to go to her room and she started throwing things down the stairs, full 1ltr bottles of water, her sisters belongings and school books, threw her sisters new phone charger (as in, amazon delivered it 3 hours ago) and the rabbit has chewed it up.

She's punches kicked and stole my glasses, I've restrained her as much as possible and told her she has no tablet for the rest of the week. She doesn't give a shit, she doesn't care, I don't even know how to deal with her, she's big and strong. She is 9 for fuck sake I should be able to deal with this. I've had enough I just don't know what to do

Thanks, yes I tried to discreetly film her on my phone last time which is what resulted in her taking it and smashing it. School are aware (although not convinced they believe the extent of it).

Pda does sound like her from what I've just read.

I just don't know how to balance keeping the peace with her and also not just never asking anything of her in case this happens to be the one time it sets her off. Her big sister is understanding but even she says to me sometimes that why does dd9 not get told off for x when I do.

Ds3 behaviour this morning is appalling, I'm wondering if he's just thinking this is how you're supposed to behave. I'm so worn down and fed up,

My daughter is / was exactly the same.

Sending much love, as I know how awful it is getting punched, kicked, scratched etc by your child. Mine was also big for her age, she started her periods at 9, and was 5’ 4” when she left primary school.

Her temper was extraordinary, and she could rage for hours .. smashing her room up, throwing things downstairs, just awful. Then I would get in a confrontation with her, that would make the whole thing spiral out of control.

I would sit there crying imaging a future where she was this awful violent adult.

She was also fine in lesson. She started high school and really struggled, she had 2 fights with other girls, and there was 1 incident where she was rude to a teacher (not massive I know).

It was at that point I really started to look at anxiety, I think it’s easy to dismiss it as something trivial, but it isn’t. I also started to send DD to a hypnotherapist, which made a massive difference .. she learned calming strategies, and also why she reacted to things as she did.

The major learning for me was that anxiety is a fear reaction, when the fear reaction kicks in the primitive brain takes over, at this point it becomes about survival, and all that adrenaline kicks in (it’s slightly more complicated). When DD is in this primitive brain mode, there us no point in trying to talk, rationalise with her, shout, be angry .. no point at all, you have to wait for those hormones to dissipate (takes about half an hour) and then you can talk.

As hard as it is (and I have been through that feeling of “I’m a parent they should just do as I say”), but that’s just not the way anxiety works.

So, the hypnotherapy gave us a language to use to talk to each other about how she was feeling, which has been great. I realised that what was important was to keep communication open, that she could talk to me and i wouldn’t judge, that I didn’t belittle how she was feeling, that I was a supporter (if all that makes sense).

She’s 13 now and it’s much much better ... she still has anxiety, but she comes and talks to me about stuff before it gets too much, I pick my battles, I know when to walk away (and come back to it later) - I think part of this is age, along with the hypnotherapy.

We went through a period of refusing to go to school last year (various things will trigger her) and attendance went to 91%, but, this year we ar at 100% .. so fingers crossed.

Anxiety in children is really hard, you will get plenty of people who tell you that your child is just “naughty” and needs some sort of punishment .. learn to smile at these people.

Thanks, that does sound very familiar. The thing is I don't know how else to deal with it. I didn't feel I could let her keep wrecking her brothers work, maybe I should have moved him I just felt like that's just letting her get what she wants and her siblings are always the ones who have to bend. When she got violent I just tried walking away, I don't rationalise I don't tell her off I just stay away, but she follows me hitting, or goes to hit her siblings

I’m afraid you sound frightened of a child.
You need to find your inner steel and start teaching her the behaviour is entirely unacceptable. Filming will just antagonise her and certainly won’t calm the situation. It’s unacceptable, whether or not she is on the spectrum. Children with special needs can be just plain naughty too.
If she’s hitting you, you physically stop it. Not hitting her but restraining her. Fast March her to her bedroom to finish her tantrum.

Perhaps instead of all watching her and reinforcing the behaviour, you should all leave the room until she’s calmed down. She should have to sort out the consequences of her behaviour. If her things are broken, don’t replace them. If she’s made a mess, she clears it up. If she’s broken other people’s things she replaces them.

Why’s she so big? Is it genetic or is she eating too much junk and getting away with that too? Is she getting enough sleep and enough exercise?

Whilst I think you can’t accept tantrums and destructive behaviour, it suggests a child who feels out of control. You need to re-establish positive control. A strict routine and structure to her life. Clear boundaries with known sanctions and plenty of rewards. More praise than criticism. Perfect age for star charts but has to be for very specific things rather than vaguely being good. It could be about going to bed on time without fuss.
Sit them separately to do homework. Is he provoking her? Says they were both pushing papers. Why did you wait for her to explode before intervening? Maybe step in earlier and make the pushing paper unacceptable rather than the explosion.

There is no dealing with it when the rage us upon them. Does she have her own room? DD does, and it’s her “place of safety”, until she us ready to behave rationally.

We still have punishments BTW .. I find changing the Netflix password is a good one.

Distraction in another tactic, as well as just ignoring them.

It’s hard, really really hard, but it will get better. I would look at trying to access some hypnotherapy, or maybe a calm app on the phone

How many times have I said the line “i’m not going to talk about this right now, when you are calmer I will be downstairs”

Also, it helps to be able to spot triggers, what’s triggering it, and how you can mitigate that.

As an add on, if they are at the same school, I’d make her visit her brothers teacher and apologise for the damage she’d caused o he wasn’t in trouble.

OK I've already said i restrain her. I do give consequences and I leave the room but as I've said she follows me, or attacks the other children. No one stands watching her I try to ignore as much as possible but if she's hitting me I hold her which just antagonised her. I do not stand there letting her hit me.

I'm tall so is her dad she is thin not fat so it's nothing to do with eating junk. She's age 12 to 13 clothes for length, I need to take trousers and skirts in at the waist.

She shares a room with her sister there's not really another option. I try taking her to her room but I can't physically get her up the stairs.

I'm not scared of her at all but the other children are. She's strong because the adrenaline takes over

And I didn't wait for her to explode. She was sat at the table. That sits 6. He sat 2chairs away amd she didn't want him to be at the table so pushed his paper, he did it back, I told them both to stop and said there's plenty of room, I asked him to move up which he did. She then got up and started knocking over his pens. At which point I said if it doesn't stop she will need to leave her homework for today and go up to bed only then did she explode

The problem is that these children don't clear up their mess, ever. My DD would live in trash, and she gradually lets that mess trickle around the house. I hoped that after she trashed her room she would learn her lesson, months later it was a state. Furniture was smashed up and it didn't help her at all, it was making her worse as she could see what she'd done when in a rage . I redecorated it this spring and brought her furniture (bunkbed =v.good) and her bedroom rages have settled down a bit.

I think you have to ignore the usual parenting techniques as that way madness lies. It works for my DS but not for DD.

I might not criticising, just wondering.
I think I might move her from the table at the first whinge. I’d scoop up papers and explain she can’t push her brother away. I’d offer to visit school and explain to teacher that her homework wasn’t done because she wasn’t behaving well. She clearly wants to be seen as good at school so that’s a very useful consideration.

Can they do homework at different times?
Was her homework too hard?

If you can’t move her - fast marching does make it easier as there’s no time for them to resist - then I’d walk away and close the door on her.

In my experience, restraining is really not a good idea ... the primitive brain has taken over at that point, so she’ll just fight with you to get away, to a place of “safety”

Funnily enough my daughter was big for her age, still is ... and I’m only 5’ 4”.. her dad is tall. There was no way I could restrain her anyway.

She doesn’t want to be like this, or react like this, it’s horrible feeling being out of control, she (and you) just need a little help with strategies. Some great stuff on the internet about anxiety, and you can talk to her about it when she’s calmer.

Now I am where I am on the journey I would probably have said “top quality pencil knocking .... however, anymore go on the floor and I’ll be coming for yours” (with a bit of humour in my voice)

Homework can be done separately but usually doesn't cause an issue. I can get her in her room shut the door and she just comes out and hits h he it doesnt matter what I threaten. If I'd moved her book at the beginning she would have still snapped, she had it in her eyes.

A friend of mine had this and struggled to get help as no one believe it was happening. Then she installed two cctv type baby monitors that go to your phone in her lounge/diner and corridor by the stairs and took the video to school and GP. She got help MUCH more quickly as the video of her being beaten, having objects thrown at her and her other kids cowering in a corner really made it real for the HCP's. Maybe try that?

I don’t really have advice, just sympathy and fellow-feeling. My DS(8) is autistic, and I’m pretty sure DD2 (6) is too. There is no dealing with them in melt-down on a rational level.
And many of the techniques I learned with DS don’t work with DD2, so I’m almost starting from scratch.
FWIW, I think there must be some developmental leap around 6/7/8 that makes life much harder for them (and their families!) - I have just spent half an hour trying to get DD2 to let me leave her at school.
My approach is to try and work out what helps and what doesn’t for each child over time, not in the moment.
By paying attention to the broader context (has anything stressful happened this week, are they tired, are they worried about stuff), it gets easier to predict the meltdowns, and then to take preventive action like cancelling a weekend activity in favour of a quiet day at home.
Gradually the meltdowns get less intense and less frequent, which also means thAt when they do happen, you are less stressed by them. And because your reactive stress feeds into the meltdown (ime) if you’re calmer, the meltdown doesn’t escalate so much.
Look after yourself as much as possible - that is really important!

Hi I also have a 9yr dd and her behaviour has changed recently but I'm also suspicious of it being hormones.
But my 7yr old is suspected Autism but he has episodes and meltdown after school
Research has now suggested this is more common. Maybe your daughter is experiencing this.

www.todaysparent.com/kids/school-age/after-school-restraint-collapse-is-a-real-thing-heres-how-to-deal-with-it/

Hi OP, my dd12 had a diagnosis of ASD last year. She has outbursts like this, bit the difference is hers started at age 1 and have happened much more frequently than what you have experienced. She is like Jeckyl and Hyde though, sometimes lovely and compliant, sometimes will flip for obvious reasons, sometimes will have her most ludicrous violent meltdowns over nothing. Her absolute worst in terms of out the blue violent outbursts (throwing multiple things at me, swearing and kicking) happened last year, and she started her period just after her 12th birthday. I definitely see a pattern with hormones, and I wonder if that is what is happening with your dd, with you saying she is big for her age? Which is a sign of puberty. Sounds like she usually has coping mechanisms, but hormones are causing her to lose control of herself perhaps.

Absolutely no issues. She's the perfect student. She's normally perfect at home too, she's so patient and even if you tell her not to do something or ask her to so a chore she will happily comply.

Just want to say this is not a child with PDA.

Cherry I know you're trying to be helpful, but it doesn't read like you have any experience with autism.
'Fast marching' an ASD child will most likely cause panic and a huge adrenaline surge.
Shutting the door on them achieves nothing, as they either come straight out behind you or break things against it. My 8yo DS will sometimes barricade himself in, so we've had to rehang his door so it opens outwards.
Physical discipline like that causes my 'high functioning' ASD son to start head banging or pulling his hair out.
It works a treat with his neurotypical little brother tho.
Telling my eldest to clear up the mess he's made doesn't help. He doesn't learn natural consequences. He doesn't think "oh I won't do that again as I didn't like clearing up". He shuts down and it can take hours to get through to him.
The ASD parents on here understand one important thing: When you've met one autistic child, you've met one autistic child.
They all so different.

OP if it helps, my DS was hurting me a lot last year, to the point that I was photographing my injuries to log them. The last six months have been immeasurably easier - I can't remember the last time he hit or bit me. It may pass as suddenly as it started for you, or you may get to the root of it unexpectedly.
I found it helped to verbalise his feelings for him as he couldn't explain. Eg "it's ok, you're feeling frustrated that xxx didn't go like you wanted, that's ok" or "it's ok that you feel angry, we all get angry, but we don't hit when we're angry".
It seems wishy-washy to outsiders, but you're gently reinforcing social rules that she will pick up on in time. People outside the family need to be ignored to an extent, I know my DSis finds the way we deal with DS absurd, but her methods are as much use as a chocolate teapot with him.

V yes exactly that, if I try to manhandle and physically move dd anywhere its like I've charged her up and she gets even stronger. She also barracades herself behind her door sometimes.

God it's so frustrating. I've spoken to school this morning just so they know she, and her brother, May be emotional

I've just remembered I take photos of the injuries, damage and deliberate mess too.
I email them to myself with the same subject line so I can search for them easily.

That's a good idea, I've taken photos of the injuries before but they're all on my old phone that she smarties and I hadn't yet backed it up

Smashed*
Not smarties

VfotVienetta and you imagine wrong. Lived much of my adult life in residential special schools for children with EBD and specialist education for autistic children. I’ve fast marched children much bigger than a nine year old. A taught technique for restraint and removal.

The child doesn’t have a diagnosis of autism, it’s MN unqualified guesswork. Actually exclusion, firm known boundaries, rewards applied consistently and consequences along with early intervention work well for any child throwing a tantrum.

OP, thank you so much for this thread. It's been really helpful hearing others' experiences.

If it helps, I've had the school fill out an 'Early help' application as camhs have said it may help get her seen more quickly.
We've had a v good week here. She's also been letting me drop her at school without a scene. So I'm feeling relaxed! The whole household has felt calmer. I'd forgotten what that's like