To admit defeat and accept my dog is never going to be safe around other dogs?

[ThornsWithin]

Got my dog at 8 weeks old. I tried to do all the right things in terms of socialisation etc and took her to puppy play sessions as soon as she was able. Instantly it was noted that she was a rough player. The other pups were scared of her. By the time she was 14 weeks old she was thrown out and banned from the group after picking a pup up by its throat and shaking it.
So I moved her into junior play sessions with the big dogs. She was the same there, constantly wanting to fight. She spent more time in time out than actually playing.
I recently booked her into day school one day a week. Every time I pick her up the report card is full of “rough play” “time out” “biting” etc.

Last week they told me she keeps picking on a Labrador. I’ve seen this dog and it has a huge bum. My dog is apparently wrestling it to the ground constantly and biting its face and neck.

Last night I picked her up and they told me I’d have to change the days I take her so that it doesn’t coincide with when big bum is there.

Last weekend she brought down a fully grown Doberman and stood over it growling in its face. She’s at advanced training classes but the socialisation side of it is becoming a no no as nobody wants their dog near her.

Are some dogs just NOT dog friendly no matter what you do??

We got our dog as a rescue at 10 months, he hadn’t been trained or socialised at all. It soon became apparent was very aggressive towards other dogs. He is a small jack Russell cross so easy enough to control on the lead luckily.
We tried all sorts of training, behaviourists etc but eventually gave up, and we now just avoid other dogs completely. He gets lots of walks, but all on the lead, and we avoid parks etc as we can’t stop other dogs from approaching him.
He has a wonderful life and we don’t think that not being allowed around other dogs is a problem.
It only becomes an issue when we go to the vet, then we can’t control what other dogs will be in close proximity so he wears a muzzle.

You need a professional to come help you with this and it will take a lot of time and very careful handling to resolve.

I've seen one puppy like this at 7wk. I am the first to say that puppies play and make a racket that sounds scary but it is all play but this puppy was an exception. Incredibly dominant from a very young age.

At puppy class once in a blue moon I have seen dominant puppies who usually take a dislike to another puppy for no good reason. They need a lot of careful handling and sometimes you need to introduce a well balanced adult dog that referees interactions.

So she’s not dog aggressive? Just plays too rough and has bad social skills?

Meh, just stop her playing with other dogs, problem solved...

My DDog is like this. he's a Frenchie. The cuter and fluffier the other dog, the more he hates it. He loves humans and is very gentle, but turns into a devil dog when near another dog. I just tend to avoid other dogs, walk him where other dogs are unlikely to be and put him on a lead if I see another dog coming.

On the rare occasion where people with dogs have visited us, I have kept him on my lap for 10 minutes then let him go. He will jump and snap and then they find their respective "place" in the pack and after that it's fine - but you can only do that with good friends/family who don't mind listening to and are not put off by the blood curdling barking and a bit of snapping and jumping. Out in public it's harder to do this so I just keep him away from other dogs. The vet says it's anxiety. He was socialised as a puppy, so nothing to do with that, it's just one of those things I think.

Has she been spayed at all?

That is never going to resolve. Extremely unlikely to even improve significantly. Keep away from other animals, muzzle when out, build a very high fence and be careful yourselves.

Dobermans are not easy dogs - have you ever had a dog before, OP?

I do think puppy classes where all the puppies are dumped in a room to "play" are a really, really bad idea. They're generally very overwhelming for dogs and can cause them to display reactivity because they're scared and have nowhere to escape to.

I also don't think any kind of "doggy school" or daycare is a good idea for a reactive dog. Again, they end up overwhelmed and react, and unfortunately other dogs can end up hurt. What you don't want, is for your dog to end up biting one of the workers because they're trying to separate her from another dog.

For now I would take her out of all group settings and get a behaviourist that specialises in reactive dogs. She should be walked on her own, on lead and muzzled for safety. No way should she be allowed to run off-lead unless she's in a secure space where she can't escape and potentially injure another person or their dog. Lots of dog walkers will do solo walks although you may find them pricier than group walks.

My dog is leash reactive to other dogs (he only barks, he's not aggressive in any way) and it is hard - I get it. We're getting somewhere with the use of treats, and getting him to "sit and wait" when we pass other dogs in the street. BUT he's not aggressive and has never bitten or gone to bite. He's actually extremely submissive in play and I wouldn't say he's especially confident with other dogs.

Please get your dog some professional help with a qualified behaviourist. While you may never get yourself to the stage where your dog is "safe" off-lead with other dogs, you may be able to get her to the stage where she's not aggressive and trying to bite.

I agree with everything Adeline has said.

If I was out with my dogs (who I have spent years training) and some lumbering big dog ran at them and hurt them (intentionally or not) I would not be happy and I would report you.

Your dog is out of control!

Get a behaviourist in, who will train you to train your dog. Until your dog can ignore other dogs or play in a controlled manner (when allowed to by you) keep it on a lead and muzzle around other dogs.

@TooTrusting my dog is a Frenchie too! He was socialised and brilliant with other dogs as a puppy but when he hit his teens and the hormones kicked in his attitude just changed.

We have a 5 year old rescue, she came to us when she was 2 after being in rescue for 8 months and is very anxious and dog reactive. On the advice of our (third!) behaviourist we have for the time being totally given up on attempting to socialise her generally with other dogs or attending daycare as it's just too stressful for her, she was constantly either trying to warn off other dogs, or playing too roughly. She just has no manners and doesn't know how to play properly bless her and there was a risk that it would go too far.

So for now we walk far away from other dogs, and we attend various classes where she can be around other dogs in a structured environment but with no greeting or playing, everyone on lead and kept a little way from each other. At some point hopefully she will be able to join less structured classes where there is more interaction. She's much happier and less reactive day to day and we have accepted whilst we will hopefully get some further improvements, she just isn't really a sociable dog; she likes her humans and just isn't really that keen on other dogs.

Please get a recommended behaviourist.

I do think puppy classes where all the puppies are dumped in a room to "play" are a really, really bad idea.

This. I'm horrified to hear of it and that it took her being expelled for her to be moved out of one class and you've enrolled her straight in another one! Dogs play to learn dog skills. She's a breed previously (well, and currently!) bred for aggression. She's literally learning to hone her aggression and attack skills in free play. Can you see why it's such a bad idea? And she's not amongst her litter mates as equals. She's picking on a dog whose breed was created for patience and a soft mouth. and their big bum isn't relevant

I would have thought that on-lead training in a controlled group setting would be far better.

From what you say she should be muzzled in public at all times, this is not behaviour that any dog should display. Try a specialist behaviourist but until that point lead and muzzled

To me it just sounds like your pup enjoys rough play and hasn’t been around enough big older dogs that will put her in her place and teach her some manners.

I adopted a big mix when she was about a year old, and she was a bit like this. There’s was a Doberman that’s she used to play with that was just the same, they’d wrestle and play fight (once until their mouths bled), but they absolutely adored each other. Some other dogs didn’t appreciate her style of play and would tell her off, which was fine by me, she needed it.

Once she got to about 2 year she old she calmed down so much, she’s now 9, and amazing with other dogs.

Don’t give up, it’s just the way some dogs are, bull headed, bad mannered, and high energy. It doesn’t make them bad dogs.

These play sessions are an awful idea. Your dog will be overwhelmed or overexcited. Research trigger stacking.
Keep away from other dogs for now and focus on obedience training.
You need a new trainer.
Ignore the talk if dominance. It’s rubbish.
And unless she’s put dogs in the vets then it’s not actually aggression but lack of manners.

Don’t give up, it’s just the way some dogs are, bull headed, bad mannered, and high energy. It doesn’t make them bad dogs.

Picking another dog up by it's throat and shaking it is not just bad manners and bull-headedness - it's aggression, plain and simple. That poor puppy could have been killed if someone didn't step in and split them up.

Yes, some dogs DO enjoy rough play, but rough doesn't mean aggression to the point of blood being drawn and other dogs being bitten on the throat!

Please don't give OP the idea that this kind of behaviour is acceptable because it really isn't. If another dog came up to mine and had it by the throat and shook it, I would be absolutely furious - that could easily kill a small dog or puppy, and cause lifelong distress, pain or trauma to another.

OP needs professional help to get this behaviour under control. Biting dogs on the throat is not acceptable. Sustained biting attacks on other dogs that clearly aren't happy to play in a similar manner is not acceptable.

There's a HUGE difference between mutual rough play and aggression. This is aggression.

And unless she’s put dogs in the vets then it’s not actually aggression but lack of manners.

Wolfie, I normally agree with you, but dogs don't need to end up in the vets to be the victim of aggression from another dog.

And unless she’s put dogs in the vets then it’s not actually aggression but lack of manners.

Wtf yeah let's wait for the small dog that's picked up by the throat and shaken to have a broken neck before we call it aggression

Is she called asbo? bless her, can we have a pic?

Hi op
Your dog needs to come out of all dog day care/classes and be worked with on a one to one basis.
Start right back at the beginning and,whatever else you do,maintain your rules,she may well test you time and time again,so not get tired or lazy and think" just this once won't hurt" because it will.She will remember she got off with it once!dogs are not stupid,especially the working breeds like yours.
She needs regular training with clear commands.ignore poor behaviour,to a dog,even negative attention,i.e.a telling off,is still attention!being ignored is not liked at all.
Praise good behaviour.
Keep her mind active,boredom and intelligence equals mischief.
Clicker training is fantastic.remember though get the reward in fast.click and treat.there are plenty of training books out there.then gradually walk her,on the lead,past another dog,if you have a friend who has a placid dog,ask them to work with you by walking past,soon as your dog sees the dog you can do you click,watch me,reward routine.
Eventually you will be able to walk her on a lead in a well behaved manner.
It could be a number of things and a trainer or behaviour trainer will be able to advise you on the type of aggression she is showing.
It may be she might never be a dog who enjoys other dogs company,and that's ok as long as she is well trained and under your full control.
Good luck with everything,I appreciate she's not a rescue?but a book called understanding the rescue dog gives fantastic advice on all matters of canine things.I think it's by Carol white.

I’m not saying the behaviour is ok. Far from it. But it’s a long way from being OTT in play to actually intending harm. Either way I did actually say to keep the dog away from other dogs.

It’s not fair another dog will get hurt or react badly and cause a big fight

But it’s a long way from being OTT in play to actually intending harm

But when you're the owner of the injured party, you don't care whether it's intentional or not. A dog bite to the neck can be really serious.

Proper training if she’s really dominant is essential, it can progress from dogs to people if she thinks she can push it far enough. And neutering obviously to stop any hormonal drive.

Those free play sessions are nightmares unless you have an already mild mannered pup. Any dominant dog will be bossy n rude and any anxious dog will be terrified.

The throat biting n tossing about could’ve been a serious incident in a small breed it’s enough to damage their throat internally.

My 4lb chihuahua thinks he is Cerberus, he’s made big bull mastiffs lay down n whimper without biting.. cause let’s face it he could be muzzled with a thimble. He’s a dominant dog, fortunately after training and neutering he’ll only try his luck if you’re a certain smell of man.. we can’t break it and it’s like 2 blokes in every 1000 and only one who visits us (who has never so much as looked at him wrong just the second he clocked him he needed to be the big guy). Unfortunately at puppy classes people thought he was hilarious because he was absolutely tiny.. I did keep repeating that if he was a large breed you wouldn’t be laughing. We still avoid off lead running mad stuff, he’s perfect at home with my other two but I don’t allow him to meet new dogs when they’re all hyped up.

Find a proper behaviourist, not someone who talks about pack leader, dominance etc etc.

She is playing but she plays rude and she doesn't listen to other dogs, and her games are unpleasant for them - if allowed to continue the likelyhood is shes going to meet a dog who really objects and fights back, scares her and then she will change from playing to actually attacking instead.

Please ignore anyone who says shes 'dominant', dominance is the outcome of a specific set of events involving two dogs and a particular resource they are competing for. Dominance is specific to context and changes according to context so a dog being the dominant dog in a particular situation tells us nothing of use about any other context.

It does not describe the CAUSE of behaviour, ever and anyone suggesting it does clearly does not understand dog behaviour at all (And that does unfortunately include quite a lot of vets!).

Picking another dog up by it's throat and shaking it is not just bad manners and bull-headedness - it's aggression, plain and simple. That poor puppy could have been killed if someone didn't step in and split them up

You’re absolutely right, I’m not sure how I missed that, but OP did also say how the dog play bows etc so I would still think that at least the majority of the time this is play. She absolutely should not be allowed to play with small dogs until she’s learnt some manners. But I still don’t think this means she’s an aggressive dog, rather than one with poor social skills. Does that make any difference to a dog that might get hurt? No. But it does make a difference in how the OP deals with it.

OP, is she getting enough proper exercise? Not crazy puppy play time but structured, calm walks etc?